Contend Earnestly: Forgiveness
Showing posts with label Forgiveness. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Forgiveness. Show all posts

Tuesday, April 20, 2010

The Most Prophetic Chapter in the Bible

Job chapter 9 has to be the most prophetic book in the Bible. The reason I say this is that Job is called the most righteous man to walk the earth by God himself in Chapter 1. After everything is taken away from Job he comes to the conclusion drawn in chapter 9. It is packed with wisdom from a man who knows his condition, knows God's goodness and perfection and is left to just complete bewilderment of what he can't do. The amazing thing is that there is only one person who can answer the most prominenant conclusion in chapter 9 by Job. It comes in verses 32 through 35 and it states:

For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.
There is no arbiter between us,
who might lay his hand on us both
.
Let him take his rod away from me,
and let not dread of him terrify me.
Then I would speak without fear of him,
for I am not so in myself.
Job 9:32-35


Read Job chapter 9 and just glean from its beauty. Amazing that this came from the man that God described as, "...none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Job 1:8b


Then Job answered and said:
“Truly I know that it is so:
But how can a man be in the right before God?
If one wished to contend with him,
one could not answer him once in a thousand times.
He is wise in heart and mighty in strength
—who has hardened himself against him, and succeeded?—
he who removes mountains, and they know it not,
when he overturns them in his anger,
who shakes the earth out of its place,
and its pillars tremble;
who commands the sun, and it does not rise;
who seals up the stars;
who alone stretched out the heavens
and trampled the waves of the sea;
who made the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the chambers of the south;
who does great things beyond searching out,
and marvelous things beyond number.
Behold, he passes by me, and I see him not;
he moves on, but I do not perceive him.
Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back?
Who will say to him, ‘What are you doing?’
“God will not turn back his anger;
beneath him bowed the helpers of Rahab.
How then can I answer him,
choosing my words with him?
Though I am in the right, I cannot answer him;
I must appeal for mercy to my accuser.
If I summoned him and he answered me,
I would not believe that he was listening to my voice.
For he crushes me with a tempest
and multiplies my wounds without cause;
he will not let me get my breath,
but fills me with bitterness.
If it is a contest of strength, behold, he is mighty!
If it is a matter of justice, who can summon him?
Though I am in the right, my own mouth would condemn me;
though I am blameless, he would prove me perverse.
I am blameless; I regard not myself;
I loathe my life.
It is all one; therefore I say,
He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.
When disaster brings sudden death,
he mocks at the calamity of the innocent.
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked;
he covers the faces of its judges—
if it is not he, who then is it?
“My days are swifter than a runner;
they flee away; they see no good.
They go by like skiffs of reed,
like an eagle swooping on the prey.
If I say, ‘I will forget my complaint,
I will put off my sad face, and be of good cheer,’
I become afraid of all my suffering,
for I know you will not hold me innocent.
I shall be condemned;
why then do I labor in vain?
If I wash myself with snow
and cleanse my hands with lye,
yet you will plunge me into a pit,
and my own clothes will abhor me.
For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.
There is no arbiter between us,
who might lay his hand on us both.
Let him take his rod away from me,
and let not dread of him terrify me.
Then I would speak without fear of him,
for I am not so in myself.
Job 9

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Thursday, October 01, 2009

Forgiveness Sucks. But So Do I.


Okay, well not all forgiveness sucks. It's cool when God and others forgive me, but I hate it when I have to forgive others. I hate when I have to forgive others even when they don't feel they have done anything wrong and I know will never change or seek reconciliation. My flesh takes over on these parts, and I also hate that about myself. I feel like Paul when he states,

"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want."
Romans 7:18,19


I am dealing with forgiveness issues, along with some anger, and really trying and desiring to forgive, move on, and press into Christ. But, the problem is that the longer I allow this attitude of non-forgiveness to abide in my heart, the more the devil has the opportunity to use it against me and my growth and pursuit of Christ will be hindered.

The issue isn't coming from me not knowing that I should forgive. I know all the verses. Let's call that "Point A." And I know that if, and when, I forgive the closer and freer I will be in Christ. Let's call that "Point B". The problem comes within the movement along that line that moves me from a head knowledge to a real heart of forgiveness that then pursues Jesus and his love and grace.

I thought I would share the ways in which I am currently dealing with this real life fact, and sin, in my life and some of the great perspectives I received from my missional community leaders last night, that have dealt with the same issues that I have.

1. I am the One Who Needs the Most Forgiveness

Through this process, God has showed me that I am the one who needs to be forgiven the most, not the others that I am struggling with. God has exposed me like a dirty diaper in a crowded room. I didn't truly understand how sinful I have been, until taking my unforgiveness to Christ through prayer. He said, like Nathan did to King David, "You are the Man!". At first, I was thinking God was getting me mixed up with someone else. Then, I realized as he worked on my heart, that I needed to deal with some of my own issues, before I would be allowed to forgive others. I needed to know how much I had been forgiven, how much patience God has had with me, how much pride has filled my heart and how much grace God has showed me. I knew the story in the Bible. I knew the story of the unmerciful servant and used to laugh at how stupid that guy looked for strangling the servant for a couple of cents compared to the millions that had been forgiven him. (Matthew 18:21-35)

But, God really opened my heart to show me that I was him. I was that man. I have been forgiven much and the small crimes done to me was nothing compared to the cross and the crimes done to my Saviour.

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Matthew 6:14-15

So, step one. I am the unmerciful servant. I must truly believe this in both the mind and the heart. I must know this and pursue the understanding of the depth of the cross. Knowing myself and knowing Christ is the first step.

2. Prayer. Not Just for Me. But Not Fake.

Recently I had been praying for those that I have had a hard time forgiving. Praying for God's grace to be abundant in their lives. Let's just say that I then had to pray for God to forgive me for lying right afterwards. I didn't want them to get grace, I wanted God to reign down fire from heaven against them. They were prayers from the head, not from the heart. I knew I should pray for them, but my heart wanted to punch them in the face. Honestly, if I wasn't a Christian, I would have done just that.

Last night, wisdom was spoken into my life. One of our missional leaders told me how she dealt with it. She said that she, knowing that she didn't want to lie but knowing that she needed to pray for those that had hurt her, decided to open the Bible and pray Scripture for them. She would pray for them by looking at prayers in the Bible and praying that for them. She said that she prayed that God would change her heart to the point where she could honestly pray for grace in their life, but until then, she didn't want to lie to God, so she prayed the very words of God for them.

Out of the depths I have cried to You, O Lord.
Lord, hear my voice!
Let Your ears be attentive
To the voice of my supplications.
If You, Lord, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?
But there is forgiveness with You,
That You may be feared.
I wait for the Lord, my soul does wait,
And in His word do I hope.
My soul waits for the Lord
More than the watchmen for the morning;
Indeed, more than the watchmen for the morning.
O Israel, hope in the Lord;
For with the Lord there is lovingkindness,
And with Him is abundant redemption.
And He will redeem Israel
From all his iniquities.
Psalm 130

3. Patience. God is Working.

The next thing that our leaders told me is to be patient. They said to be honest with God, pray the Scriptures and then also know that the heart doesn't always follow right away. I currently have an open wound that needs to be covered by God's grace and much prayer. But, that open wound needs time to heal. I can say that I am healed all I want to, but I must be honest when I see it flaring up and bleeding.

During this time, continually seek out God and his lovingkindness. Continue to search the Scriptures, but give myself time and understand that I am not going to be cured like I went to a Benny Hinn crusade and gave a $1000. This is key for me, because I am one that desires for things to be done instantly. But sometimes, you have to realize that we are on a journey and not in a race.

The end of a matter is better than its beginning;
Patience of spirit is better than haughtiness of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 7:8

4. God Has Justice. I Am Just a Witness. But a Guilty Witness.

The last thing that I learned from my missional community leaders is that I must allow God to work on their hearts, that is not my job. They said that anger will abide in my heart as long as I want them to be "paid for what they did" instead of trusting myself to my God. I have to realize that God is the one who convicts and puts forth judgment, that isn't my job. These people might never repent, they might never seek reconciliation and to me, it might seem as though they "got away with it." But, if continue to dwell on their actions and their non-repentance, I will never be able to fully entrust or press into my Saviour.

I must remember that they didn't only sin against me, but they sinned most fully against God. He is the one that is most offended in this transaction, not myself. I must deal with my sin, I cannot make them repent, but if I withhold forgiveness, I am now again in sin and won't be able to move on to have full joy in Christ.

……Mercy and forgiveness must be free and unmerited to the wrongdoer. If the wrongdoer has to do something to merit it, then it isn’t mercy, but forgiveness always comes at a cost to the one granting forgiveness.
Tim Keller, The Prodigal God (pg. 82-83)


I must understand that I am a witness of this crime, but I am a guilty witness. I am not sinless, but I held the nail as they were being hammered into my Saviour. So, if I expect myself to be forgiven, I must forgive and love that my oppressors are also forgiven. We are both on the same floor of grace, and if their floor gives way, so does mine.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:14-21


So, this is what I am working on in regards to forgiveness. I desire to forgive in my mind, but my heart is holding out. I must entrust myself to my God.

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
1 Peter 2:21-25


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Tuesday, August 11, 2009

How Do I Know If My Child is Saved?

Because of the discussion of communion, many usually start asking, "if we don't allow people to come to the table unless they are saved, how do we know if they are saved?" Usually this has more to do with our children than adults, even though I do not believe there to be much difference in repentance and faith. Do they look different? Sometimes, but the same ideals should be seen and put forth. This isn't a dumb question and one that should be asked by parents and sought to be answered. The problem with the answer, like many things in practical Christianity is there is no hard and fast rule. If you would like to read my thoughts on infants and heaven, you can read that here: Where do babies go when they die?

But, for those God has allowed to grace us with their presence, even though we as parents don't always see it that way, how do we know when they are saved and ready to be baptized and partake in communion? I am more liberal than some on this thought and desire that my sons be included into the New Covenant sooner upon profession than a continual questioning of their salvation. I just want to share how I am going to "test" whether or not my children are saved.

Confession and Repentance

When looking throughout Acts and the Gospels two things are clear: a disciple of Christ is a person who confesses Christ and repents of sins.

Martin Luther's first of his 95 theses states:

Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite (or "repent ye"), willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

Both of these terms, confession and repentance, are in the present tense. Meaning, just as Luther points out, we should continually confess and repent as Christians. This does not mean that your child needs to then say a prayer of confession and repentance, fill out a card, check a box and walk down the aisle and consider himself saved from that nasty place called hell with that ugly beast called Satan. This isn't what the New Testament is trying to get across, although we will be saved from hell and the wrath of God.

Confession of Christ means just what the Bible continually points to. Confession, or faith in Christ, means that you believe that you are a grave sinner in need of a Saviour to save you. One must believe that their Saviour is found in Christ Jesus alone, on his works alone and that he rose from death, conquering our sin altogether. Can a child understand this fully? I would rather beg the question, "Can ANYONE understand this fully?" The depths of the cross and resurrection are so overwhelming that if anyone says they understand it, they are deceiving themselves. I would rather give the cross and resurrection liberally to the lost, including my children.

As they start to show this understanding as they continually seek its power, I will quickly affirm their belief, not belittle them.

Repentance is something that we as parents like to forget about. It really comes in the understanding of life change as well. Being that we are new creatures in Christ, we have to remember that this does not mean that we made ourselves new creatures because of our works, neither will we work out our sanctification solely on our works either. We must see this with our children.

Too many parents hold the sins over the heads of their children. Saying that they do not see the life change expected from a Christian, all while denying their own struggles with sin. Acting as if their life is holy and undefiled because they read and pray every morning before going to work while their child plays with Legos.

If we really want to get to the crux of the life of the Christian it is one where we desire Christ and his cross so much more because we see how clearly we, in our flesh, continually sin. We seek to understand how a God, infinite and holy, can love and die for a wretched sinner as I.

We don't then try and understand this and hold it over our child's head on why their life doesn't look "Christian". This sounds a lot like the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18, whose debt was paid and then strangled someone who owed him so much less. Do our children sin? Yes. Will they continue to sin and disappoint us? Yes. Do we forgive them for this? Yes. But we must remember that they didn't sin against us, but against God. We have to remember that we don't sin against others, but against God. If God can forgive us for sinning against a holy and infinite One, why can he not forgive our children of the same thing?

So, How Do I Know if My Child Is Saved?

I will seek to see when my child is repentant and loves the cross more than his sin. My sons currently, at the ages of 6 and 3, know the facts of the cross, but are showing little signs of repentance. Although I see other signs in my kids that make my heart cry out in joy, I don't see sons that desire forgiveness through the cross. They do not need to know all the facts of the Bible, they don't need to know how to debate the substitutionary theory of the atonement or prove that Christ was born of a virgin. What they need to know though is that Christ died for them (which is in fact substitutionary) and that they will continually sin in this life, but forgiveness waits for those who are repentant. This doesn't mean that they will desire to sin, but will desire to live for Jesus. This doesn't mean that they will be sinless, but will know who to go to for forgiveness when they don't share, fight, lie or call their siblings dumb.

As soon as I see this in my child's life, I will baptize them and allow them to partake of the table. I pray that this life starts sooner than later, but I will not wait for my child to be close to sinless for this to happen, but will seek out sons who love Jesus and love that he did all the work and they are helpless without him.

Parents, be careful that you don't become a heretic in waiting for a sinless child to kill themselves on the altar. Christ paid for their sins, just as he paid for yours. Don't be the unmerciful servant, but be the servant that tells the wonders of the great and merciful one who waits and desires for your child to be welcomed into the family of God.

Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Matthew 19:13-14

The principal difficulty of children in coming to Christ frequently lies in their friends. Their parents or their other relatives think they are too young, and discourage them. Oh, that we all had a right idea of the possibility of the conversion of little children; nay, not only of the possibility, but that we looked for it, watched for it, and encouraged young children to come to Christ! You know that, in the parable I am going to read presently, we are told that the householder “went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.” What a privilege it is to be Brought to Christ early in the morning,—that is, while we are yet children.

Spurgeon, Charles H.: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 43. electronic ed. Albany, OR : Ages Software, 1998 (Logos Library System; Spurgeon's Sermons 43)


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Monday, July 20, 2009

Hey Husbands...Grow Some


It is interesting when speaking to some about anger within the household and how it affects marriage. It is funny when someone jokingly asks, "So, after almost 10 years of marriage, how many times have you slept on the couch?" I quickly become as serious as an IFB preacher does when he hears rock music. I respond, "I never have, nor will I ever." This isn't because I am the man and believe it is my bed and my wife needs to deal with me. Not at all. I actually have a different outlook that some do when speaking of being angry with my spouse. But, I do believe it is the husband's job to resolve any conflict that is happening within the household.

The reason I tell husbands to "grow some" is because some men become so skittish around an angry wife they throw out all theological conviction for the cause of not having to confront an angry wife. This isn't godly in any way.

Scriptures tell us this:

Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.
Ephesians 4:26-27


This is definitely not only speaking of marriage, but of a holy life in general. We can apply this verse in numerous ways, but in this post, I want to make a charge to the husbands.

Lead Your Wife

The one rule I started out with when Stacy and I were married is the rule that we wouldn't lay our head on our pillows angry at each other. Has this caused some crazy conflicts at 1am? Yep. Has this made our marriage better? Yes. Is there something more at stake here than a happy marriage? Of course.

I told my wife that I honestly wanted to work out conflict before we went to sleep, if there was any. I did not want to take our anger to the next day. Stacy didn't always enjoy this, but she knows that if we have conflict, it will be dealt with swiftly. But, husbands need to take charge in this to lead the wife in this area. It isn't that the wives aren't capable, but we are charged as husbands to lead our wives in this and show them the gospel in it. Ephesians 5 tells us that Christ is the head, both spiritually and physically, of the church and the husbands are to be such for their wives. Showing the wife the gospel by reconciliation each night is a great way to keep the cross and resurrection of Christ in front of the eyes for both partners.

Sometimes this takes great humility from the husband to apologize to the wife and tell her that you were wrong. Sometimes it takes you growing some and telling the wife that she was in sin how she reacted and responded in her time of anger. Our wives are not immune from Scripture when it tells us:

We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
1 Thessalonians 5:14-15


The wives are included in this context. Now, just as you wouldn't tease a UFC fighter for being overweight, you don't want to come at your wife in an attitude of pride. Come to her in humility, first apologizing if you responded or acted in any way that was unbecoming of a loving husband, but grow some and tell her if she was wrong. Believe me, sometimes this isn't fun, but I have noticed that for the most part, if I come to my wife in the right way, she responds in humility and loving repentance. She also knows it is coming before night's end as well, since we have the rule that we will never go to sleep angry.

Opportunity for Gospel Presence Not Satan's

Notice the second part of the verse here. It states,

and do not give the devil an opportunity

If you allow anger to ferment, the devil will win out and the gospel loses its opportunity. What this verse is really stating is that something will have an opportunity, it will either be the gospel or it will be the devil. If we deal with our anger with our spouse, we give opportunity for the gospel to show itself and clean our hearts. Think of this. If you deal with anger with your spouse, you and her have the chance to speak of repentance, forgiveness, the cross, the resurrection and the hope of heaven ruled by God where no sin and no (unrighteous) anger will exist. When you deal with sin together as a married couple you get a chance to see the gospel with your eyes, you and your spouse have the chance to see Christ face to face.

If you do not deal with your anger quickly, you instead give the devil opportunity. Every chance the devil gets, he will quickly rush in and squander gospel opportunity. He will give the one angered pride, he will give them questions on the love of the spouse, questions on motives of the spouse, questions on the spouse's commitment, etc. Remember he is prowling around like a lion looking for someone to devour. Being angry with your spouse is like unlocking the gate and throwing your spouse in the lion's cage. Just as Paul states elsewhere that if either spouse deprives the other of sexual intimacy, it gives Satan an opportunity, so does anger.

I have heard it stated that the passage in 1 Corinthians 7 is showing that if you deprive your spouse, it allows Satan in your marriage bed. I do not know any husband that wouldn't freak out like a Jerry Springer guest if they saw another in their marriage bed, why would we allow Satan? Husbands must take this head on and not give the devil the opportunity to move in and stir up trouble.

The husband must grow some and take anger head on. I must say that if the husband ever allows his wife or himself to sleep on the couch because of anger he is no man and he is not leading his wife and he needs to grow some and start leading his wife instead of wearing a skirt and being a pansy. When we as husbands do not lead our wives in the area of anger we give the devil an opportunity to squash the gospel. When we as husbands decide that our pride is more important than our wives and ultimately the gospel, we might as well call ourselves "daughters of the devil" because we don't even deserve to be called "sons of the devil."

Husbands, grow some. Lovingly lead your wife so that both of you can continually see the gospel and Christ face to face.

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008

Learning from the Michael Vick Situation

I was listening to Seattle's sports station the other day when the news hit the wires that Vick is expecting to return to football when he gets out of jail this Summer. It was interesting to hear the responses from callers and also the local radio show host, who always seems to know little of the subjects that he comments on. As I was hearing the conversations take place on live air, it made me chuckle and also just shake my head at the world view many of these people have. In case you haven't heard and have been in a cave looking for unicorns, you can read why Vick went to jail here.

As I was listening it made me think of how a Christian should respond in these situations and what our reactions should be, not only to this, but to anyone who sins against us in such a public way.

The first is biblical forgiveness. Many callers on the show kept saying that the NFL should restate him because everyone deserves a "second chance." This is an overstatement in so many ways. The NFL is a corporation, and like any corporation, image to the customers is key. Now, we might argue that there might be a double standard here (which I will discuss below) but still, the corporation gets to decide what is deemed as an unforgivable image offense and what is deemed as an offense worth a "second chance."

Biblical forgiveness is a forgiveness that forgets the sin, but not the sinner. We learn that when God forgives us that he wipes it from our slate and that it is as far as the east is from the west. But, we are also told to not make a brother stumble. So, to simply say, "forgive and forget" and leave it at that is not that simple. Let me give you an extreme so you get my gist of this. If I were to find out that someone was beating my child when they were baby sitting them, I could forgive them but that doesn't mean that I simply allow them to babysit my child again. That is called stupidity. The same process should be used with anyone that sins against us. We should be careful that we don't cross the line of biblical forgiveness with "turning a blind eye" to their sinful tendencies. If we allow someone to be put back into a situation that would tempt them to fall back into their sin, we should be held accountable. We need to be careful as Christians as does the NFL with Michael Vick and his restatement. If they do restate him, I would put some clauses in his contract on ways to try and keep him out of past sins and tendencies. That to me, would be the Christian way to handle this.

Second, is the fact that all our sin is atrocious. The radio host made a comment that other players that get caught doing drugs and have an alcohol problem should not be seen in the same light, because they have a disease, not a moral problem with their actions. Wow, what a statement. What I have noticed with this Michael Vick situation is that what he has done to dogs is seen as more important than a player beating his wife, or a player endangering the lives of other humans by driving under the influence. If we really want to get to the bottom of this, those acts done against image bearers are much more atrocious than those done against dogs. Both are sins though and both are ones that should be taken seriously. What I noticed is that the radio host and the callers continued to make Michael Vick their standard and would say, this player or that player is okay because they didn't do what Michael Vick did. Or, they would point out that they themselves were okay, because they didn't do what Michael Vick did. Michael Vick became their standard of holiness.

We as Christians love to do the same thing. We set others as our standard, when they aren't our standard but, in actuality, are a mirror of our sin. I was riding the bus the other day when a transvestite came aboard and I started to think, "I have to start to see my sin on the inside as disgusting as this transvestites sin that they are showing on the outside." Until I see my sin, the way I see the transvestites sin, I will always hold myself out to be more holy than I actually am.

We must stop comparing ourselves to others, and must compare ourselves to the only holy God. When we are commanded to follow the law perfectly, told to be perfect as He is perfect, be holy as our heavenly Father is perfect, we should understand that HE is our standard and holiness is our calling. When we see ourselves in those eyes, we will stop being so confounded at others and their sin and we will see that they are only reminding us of the ugliness of sin that is in our own lives! The good thing is that God is not the NFL or the finite, sinful callers that called into the radio show. God is a God that sent His Son because He knows what we don't get. Namely, we are Michael Vick. We need to be reconciled to God and the difference is that God gives us this through His Son, not our "improved actions" or payment of our penalty with jail time.

For the record, I hope that Vick gets reinstated so that the conversation continues on sin and comparison between him and the others in the NFL continue to be looked at.

In the end though, I will not hold the NFL responsible if they decide to not reinstate Vick, because it is their company, and they get the final vote on their image and their employees.



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