Some Helpful Links...

Check these out as I think you will definitely find them helpful:

Tim Challies is helping give away Jonathan Edward's audio book, Religious Affections. I am sad to say that it isn't the voice of Jonathan Edwards in the audio. ;) Click here.

Travis Carden has a pretty extensive list of verses backing the doctrine of Total Depravity.

HT: erik

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Total Depravity - Affirmed

When we look at total depravity, I am going to really try to defend the position and what we mean, as Calvinists, when we speak of total depravity. Most have commented on Nate's post and there is some great positions being posited on people's positions, so I encourage you to read Nate's post and the comments as well. What I will try and do is answer as much as possible on the affirmation on the Calvinistic confirmation of this most important understanding of anthropology and hamartiology, and focus little attention on Nate's post, although naturally, refutation will take place in the flow of this post.

I do believe that one's approach and definition of this subject, will guide the understanding of their view on soteriology, so as Nate spoke, and also others throughout the years, total depravity is really where the debate needs to start. When a Calvinist states that man is totally depraved, they mean that the man's nature is completely corrupt, perverse and sinful throughout. This "total" is NOT a means to say that every man is as evil as they could possibly be. I have heard R.C. Sproul say that even Hitler didn't murder his mother. So, we are speaking here of man's total inability of spiritual good. The word "total" is speaking of the total corruption because of sin and it extends to every part of a man, his body and his soul and has affected his mind, will, etc.



As a result of this, man is completely unable to do anything spiritually good. Man is so spiritually bankrupt that he can do nothing pertaining to his salvation, unless first regenerated by the Spirit of God. What this does NOT mean is that man can do no good on a human level of interaction. We have all seen Mother Teresa, Bill Gates and Gandhi and asked ourselves, "How can someone say that they are doing nothing good?" When the Calvinist speaks of man doing nothing good, we are speaking of the spiritual deadness not the standard that man imparts to one another. There are two things to consider when speaking of good; there is the outward good and the inward good. The outward good, is keeping the commands of God. When one does not lie, cheat, steal, murder or slander these are outwardly good, and, we as man, can see this good. But, the most important, according to Christ himself, is the inward good of intentions of the act. This inward good is pit against the perfection of the Father who is holy and undefiled by sin. Even Christ says: you shall not murder (outward good), but I say that even if you are angry with your brother you have already murdered in your heart. (spiritual depravity compared to God's holiness)

So, that is the overview of this view, now I want to show the Scriptural proof of this thought of us being completely depraved and dead in our sin.

Even though Nate has tried to escape the subject of death in the garden (even telling us to throw out Romans 5), it is very clear that Scripture warrants that in the garden, not only physical death was to come to pass, but on that DAY spiritual death happened.

Genesis 1:31a tells us that when God was done creating He said:

God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

So, we see first that God describes His creation as being "very good." We then have the command of God about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God says this:

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 2:17

Notice that God tells Adam that IN THAT DAY you shall surely die. If God is speaking only of a physical death here, you would think God to be a liar, for in that day Adam did not die, for he continued to live. On the contrary, you would think that if God was speaking of a spiritual death that we would have some proof in the Bible. Here is where Nate said to throw out Romans 5 because it NEVER speaks of a spiritual death, but I would have to completely disagree. Look at Romans 5:12,18

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 5:12,18

Notice that through the one sin, CONDEMNATION happened and through on act of righteousness there resulted justification of LIFE to all men. Does any think that justification means simply a physical life? Or is Paul telling us that through sin we have all died, spiritually, but through Christ we have all been brought justification of SPIRITUAL life. The Greek word here for "condemnation" (katakrima) means a "damnatory sentence."

I believe just through this one verse (there are others) we can see that Adam literally died on THAT DAY, spiritually.

You would also think that if this truly happened that there would be some "fallout" because of this death of sin. Which, of course, we have. God goes from calling His creation, "very good" to now the first murder happening in Genesis 4:8 and then we have the Nephilim in Genesis 6 and then finally God simply states:

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:5

And just so that you don’t get the idea that this was only pre-flood and things were differently afterwards Genesis 8:21 states again:

the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth;

The Greek word used here for “intent” means “framework or purpose.” So the framework and purpose of man’s heart is to do evil, not good.

But what happened? How did God go from saying that man was created good to saying that he was framed, inclined and purposed for evil?

Sin. What was the punishment for that sin? Genesis 2:17 states that if they ate from the tree that would “surely die” and every since then people have responded and taught like the devil taught when he said in Genesis 3:4, “You surely will not die!” To say that we have not died, to be honest, is how SATAN HIMSELF RESPONDED!

To continue in thought on the deadness of man you would then expect the rest of the Bible to teach it, and it very explicitly does. You really have to do some dancing to try and reinvent what the word, "dead" means.

I will quote my good friend Josh here:

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 Jn 3:14.

-Passed from death to life is pretty clear here.

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel- 2 Tim 1:10

-Christ did not abolish physical death, and the spiritual death that is abolished is not your definition of the second death in Revelation, it is the human condition of spiritual death from birth. Notice the antithesis is bringing life though the light of the gospel.

I would have to agree with Josh here, it is very clear why Christ came: to abolish our spiritual death. Look at on of the most popular verses in evangelism:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life.
Romans 6:23

This part is going to get lengthy, but I hope that the vastness of it will help one understand that this doctrine is not just found in one part of the Bible, but the Bible is filled with this doctrine. I will link the Scripture references instead of writing them all out.

As we have already stated, Adam's sin caused death to the whole human race (Romans 5:12) and so we also see in Ephesians 2:1-3 and Colossians 2:13 both telling us of this deadness in our sin.

David confessed that he, and other men, were born into sin: Psalm 51:5; 58:3

As a result of this sin in the garden man has been darkened to the truths of God and our hearts and minds are corrupt and evil: Gen 6:5; 8:21; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Romans 8:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Eph 4:17-19; 5:8; Titus 1:15.

Not only this but we are actually slaves to sin, under Satan's control and told that we are children of Satan: John 8:44; Eph 2:1,2; 2 Timothy 2:25,26; 1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:19; John 8:34; Romans 6:20; Titus 3:3

I will repost a little from what I did in my opening here. Unlike Nate, I believe that Romans 3 is a perfect example of us before we are with Christ, before we are regenerated, and that is that "no one is good, no one seeks for God, that we have become useless" and that Romans 8:8 tells us that "no one in the flesh can please God." These apply to us. Nate tried to go back to Psalm 14 to say that this is talking about the fool, but before we are in Christ, are we not all fools? We are called children of the devil (John 8:44), children of wrath (Eph 2:3); haters of God, slaves to sin (John 8:34); and Ephesians 4:17-19 describes those without Christ as futile of the mind, darkened, excluded, and hardness of heart. Does not 1 Corinthians 2:26,27 tell us that we were fools? The point is that before you are in Christ you are a fool! After Christ, you are only a fool to the world, but in reality you are the wisest because God has given you the wisdom from above. (James 3)

This is all because we are totally depraved of any spiritual good. God explicitly tells us that

For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Isaiah 64:6

Everything that we would see as "righteous" God sees as literally a bloody "menstrual rag." Even Job tells us:

Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!
Job 14:4

Do you see this? Job actually starts this chapter off by saying that man from woman is "...full of turmoil (or trouble)"

Jeremiah continues in this understanding of the complete depravity of man:

Can the Ethiopian change his skin
Or the leopard his spots?
Then you also can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.

Jeremiah 13:23

It is almost embarrassing how many verses speak about the complete evilness of man's nature. Nate and I said at the beginning of this discussion that we must both come to the fullness of Scripture to see how our theologies "play out" and I would have to say that the Calvinist doctrine takes the full of Scripture to describe our condition, while it is not easy to hear, it is definitely truth.

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Romans 6:16

Notice that if you are a slave to sin that is whom you obey, you are one or the other, not both. If you are evil's slave then you must obey your master. How do we ever come out of our depraved mind to follow Christ? How can we obey our Master who calls out to us: Repent! It can only happen by God's grace, through regeneration and the effectual call, but that is for later in our debate.

I believe that Matthew 23:27,28 allow us to understand fully what we see while we are here on this earth. Nate said that Jesus never speaks of total depravity, yet Jesus does and I will give you one example and leave you with this. While we see others as doing good, like I said outwardly, God's standard, which is perfect, is to judge us inwardly.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 23:27,28

May we never underestimate our sin, but may we hate it and try to rid ourselves of it. When one underestimates sin, they will only be more liable to fall into it.

Soli Deo Gloria

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Total Depravity - Opposed

By Nate Asper

Alright, now it all starts for real. The actual debate. Let me restate for those who have not kept up with everything that I am opposing Calvinism but am absolutely NOT and Arminian. There are more views than just those two.

Realize also that the Calvinist doctrine rises and falls on Total Depravity.

I believe a mountain of evidence exists to show why we are not totally depraved. Again, we are keeping this debate as short as possible while trying to cover a lot of ground feel free to comment though Seth and I may move along before all comments get answered. Thanks to all for your interest and participation. There are certainly less productive things one could do with their time than search the scriptures. This post may be lengthy, though I see Total Depravity as the key to this whole debate so trust me, shorter posts will follow!

Basically a quick definition of Total Depravity as I understand it. Man, after the fall, is no longer capable of believing the gospel. He cant repent as he is "dead." He cannot choose God, save for God's irresistable grace. I think this is the basic idea. Now, there is so much wrong with this that it may take me a while to sift through it, so bear with me. Let's start in Genesis. Adam and Eve sin and God gives his curses. Earlier, he states that "in the day ye eat thereof, thou shalt surely die." After the sin, God further explains his judgments. He touches only on the aspects of physical death, a "return to the dust." He also guarded the tree of life so they could not live forever. Now, if they had been rendered spiritually dead, wouldnt this appear somewhere in the curses. If this Calvinist doctrine is true, then God does not even come close to telling man the whole truth. Throw out Romas 5 as well, since their is absolutely no mention of spiritual death here. "Death passed upon all men." True, though based on what God said we have to say this a physical death. I know you all want to claim the spiritual death here, but to say so is only possible when one reads ideas into the text.


Now, let me clarify a few things. I do believe spiritual death has its roots in the garden of Eden. I believe that spiritual death is important, but we need to look closely and take things within their context. I have heard scores of Calvinist use the "corpse" logic when explaining total depravity. Dead people cannot respond to life saving medicine and so on.
Likewise, the spirtually dead cannot respond to the gospel without a miracle. A quick side note...please stop using this analogy!! It is so bad. Remember, a corpse also cannot respond to poison. Or a gun shot. A spiritual corpse would not then be completely immoral, but rather, completely ammoral. The truth is, we are not spiritually dead but we have a sin nature. The innocence of man was lost when he ate of the fruit. We are born sinners. The Bible says we are sinners from the womb. Paul states several times (many in Rom. 6) that we are "slaves to sin." Now we cant be slaves and be dead. We are born slaves to sin because of our sin nature.
Remember, take the Bible in its full context. Dont jump on the Eph. 2:1 bandwagon too quickly because you ingnore too many other scriptures that use metaphors that would contradict your conclusions. These must work together, and I will show you how during this argument.

Let's take a look at spiritual death. What is it? Well, spiritual death does indeed exist though it is referred to as "the second death" in Revelation 20:14. Spirtual death and physical death work together. When we physically die, we will face judgment for our earthly actions. Those who have not accepted Christ will be cast into the lake of fire...the second death...spiritual death. Spiritual death is an eternal death. The concept taught is two deaths for the unsaved, one for the saved. Otherwise we would certainly read "third death" in Revelation. The original spiritual death, the physical death and the final spiritual death of being cast into hell.
Spiritual death occurs after death though it is a sentence from birth. This is very very important to understand. We are born sinners which carries a payment. This is where Romans 6:23 comes in. Earlier in Rom. 6 we were "slaves to sin" then freed, and finally we read "the wages of sin is death."
Spiritual or physical? Well, both. The bigger issue though is certainly spiritual death, though neither can be escaped. We will all die physically, and all have since being denied the tree of life. That is a given. But not all will die spiritually, which is why this verse is so vitally important.
The wages of sin is death...eternal separation from God in hell. Wages of course, speaks of a payment or penalty. What we earn, so to speak. When we are born in our sin nature, we are automatically sentenced to death (I'm talking spiritual death). That is the meaning of Eph. 2:1 when we were "dead" in trespasses and sins. We certainly were, in that we were sentenced to eternal death because of our sins. We are as prisoners on death row. We often refer to these sentenced to death as "dead men" or "as good as dead."
You must understand the metaphor and how it relates to the other scriptures.
Biblical understanding of spiritual death clearly teaches that it occurs after physical death as the end result of sin. It is the wages. The payment. It is a simple concept really. We all sin and those who have accepted Christ have His righteousness and he sacrificed his perfect blood to atone and satisfy the debt. We are "pardoned." Those who have not accepted are unable to offer any sufficient atonement for their sins. Their sentence has never been pardoned and the end result..."execution."
Spiritual death and eternal separation from God. I love the way James puts it in 1:14-15 when he says that "lust when it is conceived brings forth sin.
Sin, WHEN IT IS FINISHED, bringeth forth death." It is so clear biblically that death is bot a CONDITION of sin but a RESULT of sin. I must move on.

Total Depravity also makes it impossible to follow scriptural commands. God "commands all men everywhere to repent." How can a perfectly just God lay forth such an unreasonable demand? Many Calvinists have told me that a command does not necessarily imply the ability to keep it. Flawed thinking.
If God gives a command and then threatens to punish those who do not comply that absolutely implies the ability to obey. Remember, perfectly just. The Calvinist should find this a rather vexing situation. Man is so corrupt and unable to repent, yet God then somehow justly punishes man for doing what he is from birth unable to do. This certainly is out of line with God's character.

Even more condemning to total depravity is that Jesus appears to not believe it. In Mark 4:11-12 Jesus speaks in parables as a judgement against the obstinate Jews. They kept his message from being understood by them lest "they might turn and be forgiven." Had they heard the gospel preached
clearly, they might have repented. Jesus also "marvelled" at the unbelief
of his listeners in Mark 6:6. Had he believed in Total Depravity, this would be no marvel to the Son of God at all.

The Bible also teaches about the conscience being seared and the heart being hardened. Paul referes to it when he states that when people who repeatedly sin "sear" their conscience. In I Tim. he is referring to unsaved false teachers. Total depravity would seem to teach hardness of heart from birth but the Bible says it is a consequence of repeated sin. Eph. 4:19 says that they are "past feeling" and have given themselves to greediness and uncleanness.

I will start to conclude by looking at few scriptures. I always hear John
6:44 from Calvinist and that men are only saved when God draws them. They make a point of the Greek word meaning "dragging." This is quite contrary to Calvinist doctrine though if through the irresistable grace the sinner immediately comes willingly. Context context context. Read vs. 45. Every man that hears the teaching and learns of it, comes to God. He is "drawn"
by the Holy Spirit's power which accompanies the Word of God. It seems clear that an "inner miracle" is not what is being talked about here, but rather men come to God when they listen and respond to the gospel's ministry. I Pet. 1:23 and James 1:18 also show that these two men believe that salvation comes through the Word of God, not an "effectual call" or "inward miracle." That is what Paul is saying when he says "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. "

I suppose I should wrap it up here. I dont want to go on and on forever, as I want this to be educational and profitable rather than repetitive and tedious. Let me finish by saying this. Take your eyes off the five points of Calvinism for a minute and just look at the gospel. Dont look at with the intention of molding into a philosophical view but rather take it at face value. Total Depravity seems to only function if man is spiritually dead from birth. That is obviously not the case. To believe so is to willingly be fooled in my opinion. The teaching on this is very clear. I often here Calvinists say that we need to take the Bible in its full context and let the bible interpret the Bible. I totally agree. Just make sure you practice this. To believe total depravity and spirutal death from birth is a clear disregard for the context of the Bible.

Until next time...God Bless

Nate

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Refutation of Dr. John Goetsch - Total Depravity

If you did not read the introduction to this series please make sure you do so that you can see the reason for this series and also the temperment going into this article written by Dr. Goetsch. The first doctrine, in order of the TULIP is "Total Depravity." I will credit Dr. Goetsch with giving a good quick introduction to the topic but I believe that Dr. Goetsch misses the point of the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity. He agrees and shows in Scripture that we are born sinners through Psalm 51:5 and tells why Calvinists believe that one must be regenerated before being justified. The place that he misses is when he states:

We are children of wrath even as others, according to Ephesians 2:2

He was only one verse off, but that makes the whole difference here when speaking of total depravity.



The verse he misses is Ephesians 2:1 and this is why it is imperative to read in context and not allow for this misrepresentation. Ephesians 2:1 states:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins

The word for "death" here in the Greek is the term "nekros" and is exactly what it sounds like, it means lifeless. Eph 2:2 then states that not only were we dead in our sins but we were, "walking according to the course of this world." Some try and say that if a person is truly dead then he cannot do good or evil. But, it is Paul's intent to show that the person is dead (also see Colossians Col 2:13) to righteousness but alive for evil. We see this same concept in Jesus and Paul using the term "slaves to sin" many times (John 8:34, Rom 6:6,16,17,20) and we actually get a definition of what this means in Romans 6:16

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Notice that if you are a slave to sin that is who you obey, you are one or the other, not both. If you are evil's slave and you must obey your master. We could continue to show this but I want to keep to the article at hand.

Dr. Goetsch then goes on to say that he believes what John 6:63 states:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

and he also states that he believes John 6:44:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

But this is where he makes a grave error. Dr. Goetsch says that there "must be a cooperation on the part of the individual with the Holy Spirit's conviction." The question I have for Dr. Goetsch is, "How is this cooperation accomplished in the life of someone who is a slave to sin, dead in their transgressions, an enemy of God (James 4:4), a hater of God (Romans 1:30) and who doesn't search for God or understand the things of God (Romans 3:11)?" And more so, "Where is this stated in Scripture according to these verses?" The term "draw" in John 6:44 is a strong word meaning "to drag" and is placed only on God's work, not man's.

This is why we need regeneration by the Holy Spirit to believe. Notice that in Genesis 6:5 and Genesis 8:21 both say that the thoughts of man are continually evil from the days of their youth. Romans 3:10 states that no one does good, no not one. Is not responding to the call of God good? So the question is, if man is born into sin, dead and slaves to sin, continually evil, not righteous, their good deeds are like filthy rags to God (Isaiah 64:6) then how can the sinner ever "come" to God when they don't even search for God? The answer is only by the drawing and regeneration of the perfect God to the depraved sinner. Further, Romans 8:8 states that no one in the flesh can please God. There has to be something that happens before one is able to believe, it cannot "just click" nor can someone just suddenly "get it." They must be quickened by the Spirit.

After this Dr. Goetsch brings up a huge straw men that has been brought up many times before, "What about the person who doesn't want to be saved?" Sorry to say, but before the Creator quickeneth us, no one searches for God and our thoughts are continually evil. But, when God regenerates us and opens our eyes to His Gospel we want Him more than ever. Must we repent and believe? Yes, of course, but this only comes by the drawing of the perfect God not the cooperation of man and God or what is widely called, synergism.

For an example look to Acts 16:14

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Notice when Lydia responded...only when God opened her heart. Did she want to respond before that? The Scriptures give us no such indication. Did she want to respond to God after He opened her heart? Of course, so much so that it then tells us that her whole household was saved.

Another example of this is Acts 13:47,48 that actually ties into Unconditional Election but we'll hit it here as well:

For so the Lord has commanded us, ‘I have placed You as a blight for the Gentiles, That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’ ”When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Notice who does the responding...only those who were appointed to believe. These people didn't respond because they were more joyful, it indicates that all rejoiced but only those appointed to eternal life believed.

Dr. Goetsch ends this part of his article acting as though we, the Calvinist, do not believe that the Lord calls for all to repent. We understand that God calls all to repent (called the general call) and this is why the SINNER'S rejection sends them to hell, not double predestination. Dr. Goetsch then states:

The Bible gives ample evidence that God speaks to the heart, but man has to cooperate with the Holy Spirit's pleading.

First, I don't know about your God, but the God of Scripture is not up in heaven just sitting around "hoping and pleading" that sinners will come to Him. He is omnipotent and completely sovereign not some beggar. Just because God commands an action doesn't mean that it is possible. God also calls us to be holy as He is holy (Lev 19:2) and to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matt 5:48). We are also told to pray unceasingly in 1 Thess 5:17. These are all commands that we cannot obey perfectly because we are still in the flesh, just as a sinner, without regeneration, cannot respond to God's command to repent.

I would like to see this ample evidence that Dr. Goetsch states is in the Bible. There is only one way that man can cooperate with God's commands and that is by the Spirit of God regenerating the person. John 3:3

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

One must be born again with the Spirit for them to see heaven, this is regeneration.

Only the faith given by God can cause the sinner that is totally depraved to respond in that faith:

For to you ait has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Phil 1:29

Notice that our faith was granted, which means to graciously give to another, by Christ so that we could believe in Him. Without this faith we will remain dead in our sins.

If Dr. Goetsch truly believed in John 6:63 and John 6:44 he would notice that both of those verses only point to God's grace and nothing about us cooperating.

I will end with this verse pointing again to our Father who is the one who does all the action towards us:

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Phil 1:6

It is He who began it and it is He who will perfect it, not the sinner.

Link to Unconditional Election post

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