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Refutation of Dr. John Goetsch against Calvinism - Intro
I am a member of a church in Maple Valley, WA that is apart of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches and we used to be named, First Baptist Church of Maple Valley, but we changed our name about 3 years ago to Taylor Creek Church. Because of our old name including the term "Baptist," we get a lot of strange mail and strange newspapers from around the nation. I don't disagree with the term Baptist, but with the rise of the American Baptist and Fundamental Baptists, there are a lot of Baptist churches around the nation that have gone over the deep end with their theological beliefs and influence.
Recently, my Pastor gave me one of these publications that was mailed to us and right on the front was, "What's Wrong with Calvinism?" I didn't know what to expect and didn't even know the church that sent it, which is neither here nor there cause there are a lot of churches that I am not exposed to because of my proximity up here in the corner of the United States. My pastor told me that I should refute the article on my blog and I thought, "good idea."
The article was put out by a publication called "The Baptist Voice" which is a publication put out by Lancaster Baptist Church in California. I don't know much of the church but from what I can glean it is an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church and so some of its distinctives are that they are King James Only and they are also of the belief that men should not have long hair nor do they believe that Christians should go to a movie theatre.
The article was written by Dr. John Goetsch, the vice president of Lancaster Baptist's college named, West Coast Baptist College. The opening of the article opens with sharing that Calvinism is basically like a disease that is infiltrating our churches. He starts by saying that he spoke to a man that is mentally handicapped at his church about John 3:16 and the beauty of that verse. Dr. Goetsch says that John 3:16:clearly articulates God's thoughts towards a sinful world, but many times religious people can complicate the Gospel. Calvinism is one of those schools of thought that has become a confusing factor for those seeking the truth of God's salvation.
What amazes me throughout this "introduction" to the topic at hand is that Dr. Goetsch does not exegete any scripture and he "sets up" the reader to think very low of Calvinism by stating such things as:Calvinism started with Augustine of the Catholic church.
Calvinism has INFILTRATED many seminaries, colleges, and churches.
It has affected good churches and colleges
Calvinism is an enemy of revival and evangelism
Calvinism has often been explained by using the acrostic TULIP to set forth the distinctives of Calvinism. Even though I have trouble finding "tulips" in the Bible.
As you can see, Dr. Goetsch's point in the introduction is to set forth a negative tone with the reader so that by the time he gets to the explanation of the theology the reader is already convinced that Calvinism is a cancer needing a cure. If Dr. Goetsch wanted to give an honest assessment of Calvinism he should give the facts of Calvinism and refute it with exegesis of Scripture, but as you will see this is far from Dr. Goetsch's approach or intent.
I pray that readers of this refutation will be open to being taught what Calvinism teaches instead of seeing it as a disease. My time here will not be focused on refuting Dr. Goetsch's other convictions but will be focused on the Scripture's that Dr. Goetsch uses in trying to refute Calvinism so that the reader will better understand the tenants of Calvinism.
The upcoming series will focus on this article that Dr. Goetsch wrote and will try my best not to stray from it. Please send me any emails or comment at any time if you feel that I am not representing this refutation correctly. Also, so everyone will know I have also sent Dr. Goetsch an email to allow him to come and interact with us here on this blog.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Link to First Point - Total Depravity
52 comments:
Does the good Dr. give his credentials? Most KJV only fundies fudge their credentials.
They operate their own unaccredited schools and handout diplomas like candy.
Although the Dr. does operate under his church's own UNaccredited college he does look like he got his degrees from accredited universities and seminaries.
check below:
http://www.wcbc.edu/academics.faculty.asp
Amazing what you can do with a piece of paper and a pen, or anymore with a word processing program and the means to distribute nonsense. I have not read the article but I wonder if like others I've seen it probably does mostly attacking and none of the scripture substantiation. Attacking and talking in generalities is an easy refute. Ask your Pastor for something really challenging. :-)
Barry.
Thanks for visiting...you will see as I refute this "article" that the article was nothing more than the use of straw men to persuade those who fall under his leadership. It is blatant and very irritating to say the least...a little taste is that he makes a point to say that the fifth point in "Preservation of the Saints" says that Calvinists don't believe in assurance of salvation...it is pretty bad
Seth,
You story is pretty familiar, my church used to be First Baptist Church of Pellston, and we get this publication along with some other kind of kooky stuff (like Revival Fires! which is mainly a series of ads for "KJV-Fundamental-Independent Baptist churches)
The comment about Calvinists not believing in eternal security just floored me as well. How he made that leap is beyond me.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and hope this series help in better understanding of the five points and also refuting this article.
It's too bad he's arminian. It's nice to see someone standing up for non-corrupted texts, and the plain teaching of scripture on hair length.
Tyrone, The NIV isn't the Bible, just a deceitful book to catch the unwary.
Lance.
That wasn't the intent of the post to speak about the manuscripts or "plain teaching" on hair length, which is laughable.
and although I don't completely enjoy the NIV or some of its renderings (even though some of its translation is better than the KJ) it is not a deceitful book...
Lance...I assume you are the same one that was over at theologyonline.com? correct? If anyone is looking for some info on manuscripts and dialogue go here and look at the 5 part series:
http://www.theologyonline.org/blog/?author=3
Seth, yes, that was me
1. Scripture isn't laughable. It always comes down to: Do we follow God, or do we follow culture.
2. The NIV's denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ is well-documented and easily seen:
Colossians 1:14
KJV: In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
NIV: in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Lance.
Your first comment on "Scripture isn't laughable": You are right but that is where correct interpretation comes into play. One could also say that Jesus has hooves and wool because He is the Lamb of God, again that would be laughable, just as your hair comment.
Number two: as far as the KJ: I will also show you here:
Matthew 5:22 (KJV)
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment
Without a cause is not a good interpretation and could lead a brother to anger and that person could think they are in the right because they have a cause.
Matt 5:22 (NIV)
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment
The NIV has the correct interpretation. So it goes both ways.
No Seth, that example, like mine isn't a matter of interpretation, it'a a matter of the NIV using the liberal, critical texts instead of the majority texts. As the ESV footnote says "Some manuscripts insert without cause" (and the ESV compromises on this one also.
To say that the apostle Paul is using hair as a metaphor, as Jesus used Lamb is actually what's laughable. Have you ever seen a commentator (even a liberal one) that saw the use of "hair" in 1 Cor 11:14,15 as a metaphor?
Seth, If you see this after you get back from your trip, check out this link:
http://www.jackhammr.org/2007/02/16/a-presuppositional-approach-to-preservation/
Ah, yes, I just got that issue and I have been preparing a refute also...I was going to call it "What's Wrong with Mis-representing Calvinism?" Thanks for stopping in at my blog...I'll be checking in on yours now that I've found it.
that would be interesting. I don't mind people disagreeing but to just completely misrepresent is what I have trouble with.
I know you must be busy, but if you get a chance, since you read the article, let me know if you feel I misrepresented Dr. Goetsch in any way.
Calvinism and worldliness go hand in hand.
And it would seem that those who post anonymously on this site and idiot non biblical comments go hand in hand as well...
anonymous: you are right Calvinism and Worldliness go hand and hand...Like Moralism and going to hell...Like Arminianism and works salvation...
D
PS: Is anyone else tired of losers who have no impact for Christ in their world somehow learning to use the internet to spread their ignorant thoughts? I suspect the anonymous thinks that movies and soda pop are worldly too...
"Idiot"?
"loser"?
This is "seasoning your speech with grace"? Calvinism and railing, reviling ALSO go hand in hand, as does a calloused heart when these things are pointed out. They usually never repent of their ungodly speech.
So when the Scripture says "I will set no wicked thing before my eyes", and when it says "keep me Lord from beholding vanity", and when it says "have NO FELLOWSHIP with the unfruitful works of darkness", and when it says "righteous Lot vexed his soul in seeing and hearing" what went on in Sodom--what are we to conclude??? That taking God's money to support HELLYWOOD, paying to watch people sin, paying people to fornicate, blaspheme and glorify sin is some "gray area"? Calvinism has a problem with Biblical holiness and separation from the world. It always has had this problem, and Calvinists always justify their carnality and compromise. One thing I know, those going in and out of movie theaters are not winning people to the Lord, and they have no moral authority to pass out tracts and witness about a Holy God if they did try that while they were having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Sin is doing anything Jesus wouldn't do, and you all know Christ, were He here, WOULD NOT be attending the movies, so you are without excuse.
The "loser" is Christ, who loses hundreds of hours a year from each of the millions of American Christian that waste their time and defraud Him of it by entertaining themselves by watching wickedness. He desires vessels of honour, but they are not interested. Hellywood is too appealing. Sad.
Anonymous.
I don't know who you are, but I assume that you are an IFB. You obviously have no idea about any historic Calvinism of any sort. You might want to do some reading.
As far as worldliness and movies and all that garbage you said...Christ would be there, because that is where he was in the New Testament...where sinners were.
He was called a glutton and a drunkard. He was called a friend of sinners. Guess what...for this to happen you actually have to be where sinners are. The biggest problem with the IFB is that they believe that they are so holy than thou that they never interact with sinners where they are...they expect sinners to come to them...that is NOT how it was with Christ, his apostles or the early church.
So, please give it up with you being unstained by the world by being out of it. Christ said to be in the world but unstained by it. You confuse locking yourself in your closet and church with being unstained.
What I fear for most IFB people is that they have become the modern day Pharisee and Christ said that he didn't come to save the righteous but the sinner. The second you think you are righteous is the second that you have told Christ, "no thanks, I am good" Bad place to be.
Please quit with your straw man arguments that don't even resemble what Calvinists believe or do.
And you say a lot by staying anonymous...because that is what you are to sinners in the world...just some anonymous person that no sinner will ever know.
Seth wrote: "You obviously have no idea about any historic Calvinism of any sort. You might want to do some reading."
While Seth and I probably have some disagreements over the history of Calvinism, I would certainly join him here.
One need only look at the absence worldliness of the Calvinistic New England Puritans to see what utter nonsense Anonymous' claims are.
On a personal note, Anonymous, read the life of Calvinist preachers Edwards and Whitfield. Learn about how they lived their lives and whether they were marked by worldliness or not. Actually read some history, instead of regurgitating anti-Calvinist propaganda.
-TurretinFan
Anonymous
I would agree that this childish name calling here does nothing to further the call of godliness and brotherly love. Speaking the truth in love does however further the cause of the gospel.
However as someone who holds to the doctrines of grace (calvinism if you want to put a name on it) I would also concur with Seth and Turretinfan that you must have a very distorted view of Calvinism. A view that probably has been taught to you, not from studying scripture but by someone who may be rabidly anti-Calvinist themselves. A thorough Biblical study would and should bring clarity of thought as to why Calvinism is a true distillation of how God has acted and how God reveals His sovereign purposes to His good pleasure. I challenge you to grab a copy of the Westminister Confession of Faith or the 1689 Baptist Confession and work through their teachings which are 100% based on the bible.
As far as holiness is concerned - yes you do need to learn from history as to what the forefathers of the reformed traditions hold on this score which again is in tune with Biblical revelation. Are you prepared to do that study?
How about reading John Frame? Should Christian's Go to the Movies. http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_books/TATM/chapter1.htm
Keith.
I wonder what constitutes "truth in love" to you? It is only unicorns and rainbows? It is only talking with the liberal definition of love?
Sometimes truth in love doesn't sound very nice, and sometimes you need to tell someone that what they are saying is very idiotic.
This doesn't mean that it is childish or not needed.
Again, please take a look at how the prophets, Christ and the apostles addressed people that came with false ideas about God in a very combatative way...
Let's put this way...
Ezekiel didn't come riding into town on a unicorn, handing out daisies, while sipping on kool aid.
He brought the word of truth sharply, and the way he did it was in just as much love that Christ did with the woman at the well.
No difference and not childish.
desires vessels of honour
Does he? Does it not say that he created some for honor and some for dishonor? Does Jesus not get what he wants?
D
Wow...I took a shot in the dark with the movie thing and all kinds of crazy came out. That is amazing. Anon. you are wrong and illogical, you cannot rail against movies and use the internet at the same time...The only way I suspect that you could be consistent is to become Amish. It's all the same thing and oyu are not being consistent.
But hey keep trying to work our way to heaven and let me know how that works for you. As for me I know I am to sinful, a loser, I suck and I need Jesus bad. It is his kindness that leads me to repentance.
I would suggest though that you remember that Worldly living (as you call it) and legalism are the same sin. One claims that they can do what they want because they are their own god and the other says that they will work really hard, because they can measure up and in fact are again their own god (as they are their own functional savior.)
D
Anon.
Also, way to let your terrible theology come through in your comment...
The "loser" is Christ who loses hundreds of hours a year from each of the millions of American Christian that waste their time and defraud Him of it by entertaining themselves by watching wickedness.
The bible says that Christ loses nothing (even though this isn't speaking of time, it nevertheless gives us insight to more than just the person being saved by saying I lose nothing; John 6:39) and is not served by human hands (Acts 17:25). So when you say that Christ is the loser, or loses anything you bring your own thoughts on topic and not what the Scriptures say. When you say that he somehow loses hours upon hours it would seem as though Christ actually needs those hours to accomplish his will.
Both errors in doctrine and understanding of our Christ.
The responses to my posts expose not only unrenewed minds, but apparently uncrucified lives as well. I love how when a Calvinist rails at another, he begins to compare himself to Ezekiel or the prophets! I didn't know being in the flesh makes one a prophet. Delude yourself if you wish, but some are not deceived by this talk and can discern your carnality.
As for Calvinism and sin, it is SIMPLE to prove. I have read Calvinist literature for a long time and know your doctrines as well as you. Rom 7:14-25 is a perfect test case. The Calvinist will DIE before he admits that this is Paul's life under the LAW, and to interpret it as his "Christian" experience contradicts chapters 6 and 8, and the rest of the New Testament teaching. Do Calvinist scholars and apologists CARE? No. Why? Their doctrine is antinomian and provides a false comfort and false peace, a SECURITY-IN-SIN doctrine is very appealing to carnal ones. When a Calvinist finally admits Rom 7:14-25 was Paul's experience under the law, and that we are DEAD TO SIN, but now SLAVES TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, that we are FREE FROM SIN, that we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, then you have escaped the error to which I refer.
Notice those who ILLOGICALLY argue that Christ WOULD BE at movie theaters because he was a "friend of sinners". How absurd. Christ would not be WATCHING THE FILTH that you watch, that is for sure. And none of you have the moral authority to pass out tracts AFTER VIEWING SIN and preach about a Holy God. Go ahead and try. You'll never be able to do it--your conscience will condemn you for hypocrisy.
The Bible ACTUALLY says:
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
SEPARATE FROM SINNERS! Undefiled! Holy! This is not the "jesus" some on here admire! Their "jesus" is a sinner, not a Saviour from sin. Christ would be at the Movie Theater alright--preaching to the crowds like we have done! Handing out tracts and holding forth the word of life.
As for what I am--I certainly am not IFB. I am not baptist at all. I am not cessationist. I am a Holiness Pentecostal believer who understands this Dispensation is the Dispensation of the Spirit, His Power and His gifts. I follow a Supernatural Christ who inspires a heart-pricking word and moves in power by the Spirit within the church and out on the streets and wherever we are. The anointing destroys the yoke. I have debated many IFB people on he streets and in Christian bookstores about their hateful railings, and their ignorance about the Holy Spirit and saying "tongues is of the Devil". No, tongues is OF GOD.
Without Holiness NO MAN WILL SEE THE LORD.
Will a man ROB GOD? Yet you have robbed me.
Can God be defrauded? Yes. Do Christians ROB HIM of money, and TIME? Do they DISHONOUR HIM when they sin and compromise? The answers are self-evident, except to a Calvinist.
Anonymous.
You put so much in here that is just bad exegesis and folly.
I don't even really no where to start. To say that I am not supposed to immulate the prophets, Christ and the apostles when I address you, or any other false teacher is really missing the point of what Paul himself says,
Imitate me as I imitate Christ
1 Cor 11:1
So, when you come on here and rail against Calvinism and have the gall to say something as stupid and arrogant as,
and know your doctrines as well as you
You should know that you are going to get a sharp rebuke. You are coming on a blog as anonymous and then get mad when we speak out against you and say that we aren't saved, yadda yadda yadda.
But, know that I know you are a holiness pentecostal I really pity you even more. To think that you will stand before Christ and when you are asked, "why should you enter" you will point to your holiness is frightening.
Do I sin still even though I am in Christ? Yes, sadly I do. But I believe that my Saviour is faithful to forgive me (1 John 1:9).
I really can't believe that you lay your head on your pillow and you believe that you are without sin. That really astonishes me to hear that and I am sorry you feel that way.
Lastly.
Just because you bring up Hebrews 7doesn't mean that you are correct about Jesus not being around sinners, befriending sinners, going to parties with sinners, eating with sinners, etc. The reason it speaks of separation in Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with what you are trying to force the text into saying, it is speaking of being with sinners and yet not sinning. Big difference.
And you hit the nail on the head,
Without holiness no man will see the Lord
The difference is that I see this holiness as the holiness that was imputed to me at faith and you see this as not only that, but then the rest of your life lived without sin.
You walk on very dangerous ground my friend.
I think a good read of 2 Corinthians 5:21 would do you some good.
If you want to talk about these things I am all up for it...if you are on here to just ramble anonymously you can do that somewhere else.
But, I think your biggest error, is not hating Calvinism, but thinking that you are without sin.
Please do more study on this subject.
Seth, it is not arrogant, nor is it require a "rebuke" to inform you I know Calvinism as well as you. For you to believe no one but a Calvinist can understand Calvinism as well as you is the position of the arrogant elitist. TULIP is quite simple to understand, as are its unBiblical ramifications.
Hebrews 7:26 says Christ was SEPARATE FROM SINNERS, HOLY, UNDEFILED. And you deny this. You cannot understand HOW Christ could minister to sinners and yet be holy and separate from them. This is a problem that reveals you inexperience in walking holy before the Lord, yet being in the midst of sinners bearing light to them. You not knowing how to do this is your problem.
I know you believe your holiness is imputed rather than REAL. Calvinism teaches an imaginary righteousness and holiness, rather than a real one. You just go ahead and trust that you are somehow holy while you live in sin. That is the classic gnostic, antinomian delusion John the Apostle and others spoke against.
I said what Paul said in Romans 6--that we are DEAD TO SIN, slaves to righteousness, free from sin, etc. And you again DENY THE BIBLE. I did not say I was sinless. Scripture commands us to NOT SIN-1John 2:1, Ps 4:4. We are to WALK in righteousness, not pretend we are while we practice sin. Calvinism PROMOTES SIN AND DEFEAT in this way, and you have proved it. The Bible says:
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Do you believe John Seth?
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Notice, the righteous one IS righteous because of what he DOES, not some imputed mythical righteousness that does not conquer sin.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus came to destroy Saan's "works" and in this context, those works are SIN. Did He or didn't He destroy SIN in the believer's life?
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
"Cannot sin"? The Calvinist thinks that cannot means inability in John 6 when coming to Christ is mentioned, and yet when the same author uses the same word about Christians and SIN, suddenly "cannot" does not mean CANNOT! Suddenly this word loses its power!
Seth, you make foolish accusations. I have PROVEN Calvinism and sin go together by letting you talk. You have proven it, as have hundreds of Calvinists I have read and spoken to. I have not "railed", you have.
So, do you believe the Holy One is Israel would sit in Movie Theaters with you, paying to watch blasphemous filth? Yes or No?
What about all the verses I posted relating to setting no wicked things before our eyes, not beholding vanity, having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness? Cat got your tongue sonny?
The Bible teaches we are given a new heart, a new nature created in rihteousness and true holiness-Eph 4:17-23, and hence we live out of our spirit, where the Holy Spirit lives. God promised that in the New Covenant, He would cause us to WALK IN IN HIS WAYS. Are you calling God a liar?
Anonymous:
You:
Hebrews 7:26 says Christ was SEPARATE FROM SINNERS, HOLY, UNDEFILED. And you deny this. You cannot understand HOW Christ could minister to sinners and yet be holy and separate from them. This is a problem that reveals you inexperience in walking holy before the Lord, yet being in the midst of sinners bearing light to them. You not knowing how to do this is your problem.
You have misread my words or I didn't communicate well enough. I never said that Christ, nor I, should ever participate in the sinner's sin, but we should and are called to be where the sinners are to minister to them. Just because you put extra-biblical mandates on people is your problem...i.e. saying that going to the movies is a sin...that is ridiculous and very legalistic in mindset.
I am not going to sit here and debate you all day on every text you lay out, but I have a simple question to pose to you to see how we differ...
Do you believe that you still sin?
And, again...if the prophets, Christ and the apostles railed those who were false in doctrine, I will not, nor never hold back against those...if you feel this is unloving..then that is your position, but it definitely is not the bible's.
You again:
What about all the verses I posted relating to setting no wicked things before our eyes, not beholding vanity, having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness? Cat got your tongue sonny?
I would need you to give me your list of wicked things before I could answer this...I am sure you have made a Pharisaical list that people should adhere to. But, without that list I can't answer your question to your liking.
As far as not beholding vanity. Again...how far do you want to go with vanity? Do I believe that someone should be so caught up in themselves that they behold themselves more than Christ? Of course not...Do I believe that my definition and your definition of vanity are different...probably...
But...by your defition I wonder if someone having a mirror in their house or brushing their hair is considered vanity.
As far as fellowship with the works of darkness...I will definitely go places to where darkness is to spread the light of the Gospel. As Paul said,
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters,since then you would need to go out of the world.
1 Corinthians 5:9,10
So, again, I will end by asking you...do you still sin?
Seth said:
I never said that Christ, nor I, should ever participate in the sinner's sin, but we should and are called to be where the sinners are to minister to them. Just because you put extra-biblical mandates on people is your problem...i.e. saying that going to the movies is a sin...that is ridiculous and very legalistic in mindset.
Me:
That is not the issue and you are engaging in smokescreens. The issue was NEVER, in our discussion whether we should be where sinners are, as I said previously, we go to them, and live around them, yet are separate from them. We do not join them in their sin, you do.
So, you do not think it is a sin to give these theaters money--God's money He has given you, to watch people take the Name of the Lord in Vain? You think it is a Christian think to do--to spend God's money watching people sin? Is that how a Christian is to be entertained? Answer please.
Seth:
Do you believe that you still sin?
Me: Another attempt to change the subject. Sin is INEXCUSABLE for a Christian, which implies we don't have to, but have been given everything we need to overcome. Do you believe that with EVERY temptation God provides a way of escape, because He is faithful, according to 1Cor 10:13? Are you saying God is a liar and doesn't provide a way of escape with every temptation, that He is not faithful?
Do you believe we are told to put on the whole Armor of God to FALL in the "evil day" or to STAND? And after having done all, to fall or to stand? What happens if we don't put on the WHOLE armor? Wht happens if we do?
Do you deny that John said those born of God do not committ sin and CANNOT sin because God's seed is in them? Are you now calling John a liar?
Is Paul a liar when He said:
Romans:
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein?
Are we DEAD TO SIN? Does Paul expect us to live in it anymore? No. Then why do you?
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Do you "know" what Paul said believers KNOW? That our old man is crucified, the body if sin IS DESTROYED? That we are FREE FROM SIN? Are you saying Paul is a liar or are your Calvinist mentors the liars? The answers are clear.
6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of
righteousness.
You clearly do not believe Paul. I understand Calvinists are deceived. You need the Mighty Baptism with the Spirit, which will purify your heart by faith. Then you will understand what Paul was saying.
Seth:
And, again...if the prophets, Christ and the apostles railed those who were false in doctrine, I will not, nor never hold back against those...if you feel this is unloving..then that is your position, but it definitely is not the bible's.
Me:
Wrong. Railing is CONDEMNED in Scripture. You are not like Christ or the prophets, they were not fleshly, elitist railers. They were humble, yet bold preachers of the Word of Truth.
Seth:
I would need you to give me your list of wicked things before I could answer this...I am sure you have made a Pharisaical list that people should adhere to. But, without that list I can't answer your question to your liking.
Me:
You "are sure" I made a "Pharisaical list"? Well you "sure" are wrong. And I see you have played the Pharisee-Card. When all else fails, when one cannot defend his compromise, when one is refuted from Scripture, then its AD HOMINEM TIME! Play the Pharisee card! Slander your opponent. How godly to compare me to those who murdered my Saviour. The inspiration for your comments are from below, not above.
You need no "list". David said he will set NO WICKED THING before His eyes. A Child can understand, but not a Calvinist defender of compromise and sin.
Seth:
But...by your defition I wonder if someone having a mirror in their house or brushing their hair is considered vanity.
Me:
Our motives are important. If we do so to look clean and presentable to a watching world, if we desire to be good ambassadors for Christ, then no. If the motive is so others will be impressed with us, esp the opposite sex, then YES IT IS. One thing I know--no woman need spend 45 minutes to an hour before a mirror putting on make-up(a pretend face) and claim to be godly and modest. That woman is vain and self-absorbed.
Seth:
As far as fellowship with the works of darkness...I will definitely go places to where darkness is to spread the light of the Gospel. As Paul said,
Me:
Of course you will! You will do whatever you want. You will do the opposite of what Paul commanded. But you will not READ CAREFULLY. Paul did not say not to REACH OUT to those in darkness, he said to have NO FELLOWSHIP with the WORKS of darkness. You desire to do that--fellowship with Hellywood. You aren't there to bring the light of the gospel, you are there to spend God's money to watch sin and waste time.
Seth:
So, again, I will end by asking you...do you still sin?
Paul said:
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Anonymous...
You say you have no list? Well you just started one...because you said that if a woman spends 45 minutes to an hour before a mirror then she is vain and self-absorbed...
So...there is number one on your list...so...how long can a woman put on make up? Your the boss, so how long?
By the way...is eating with a sinner and those in darkness fellowship? Uhh...yes...is being friends with those in darkness fellowship? Uhhh...yes again...Paul commanded us to associate with the sinner and Jesus himself ate and partied with them...too bad you will not see this.
As far as your excuse with hollywood...let me ask you...
Do you ever go to a grocery store? or to a clothing store? Did you know that most of those are owned by sinners and that they will use your money for their evil deeds?
And, since you didn't answer my question directly...I will just take it as a "no" that is...that you never sin...
Your holiness is derived from your own works and you can't see that God says he doesn't need your works because he isn't served by human hands and that anyone who says that they do not sin is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 1).
So...anonymous...
You, by saying you do not sin...are a liar and the truth is not in you...thanks for finally showing us what it means to be modern day Pharisee...keep pointing fingers at others and look to yourself as the great holy man/woman that you are...
This must be your prayer every night:
He also told this parable to somewho trusted in themselves that they were righteous,and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee,standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'But the tax collector,standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:9-14
I will stick to looking to Christ and his righteousness and doing my best to immulate him...but when I falter, I will look to him for forgiveness.
I would hate to see you counsel people going through struggles in their life. You have no compassion and no mercy or grace when you tell them that they cannot sin or they are a sinner going to hell.
You will be rebuked more heavily than anything you have seen here...
Your righteous deeds are like dirty tampons in the eyes of Christ...so good luck giving them to him when you are judged...
Me..I will not look to my works, but only his.
Thank God for the cross of Christ.
All glory to him, no glory to me.
By the way...which church do you go to...
DRAPIER PENTECOSTAL HOLINESS CHURCH
or
PENTECOSTAL HOLINESS CHURCH
in Eden, North Carolina?
It is sad to see the debate descend to this, but this is where a cornered Calvinist will take it--the sewer. You have purposely misrepresented my views, my plain statements, you have deliberately set up these straw-men because you have NO ANSWER to the numerous Scriptures I posted, and hence, tis not I who is the liar, but YOU who have proven yourself to be a liar. Your arrogance, cloaked under a lame facade of humility deceives NO ONE who knows the Word of God and the Spirit of God. You do not trust Christ, but Calvinism. Your assurance is not a present relationship with Christ, but a man-made lie of Eternal Security.
Paul said believers are DEAD TO SIN and FREED FROM SIN. You have called Paul and John liars, and so we know from whence you speak.
Cool man...good to talk to you...glad you think I call Paul and John liars...
Brutal..
Amazing you can't answer questions about your faith straight forward.
You say I have purposely misrepresented your views? How? Where?
Never set up a straw man...just asked you questions and you don't answer. And I have answered your questions based on your Scripture passages.
Again.
If you believe that you are without sin and you don't sin anymore John himself calls you a liar and the truth is not in you.
I will not allow your comments to come through any further. Have fun in Eden.
Late.
anonymous...
Let me be more harsh...
Go away...don't comment here any more.
You obviously aren't getting it.
Well I have to say that I was a little offended when I saw your comments about Dr. John Goetsch, being that he led me to the Lord in Homiletics class. If you ever have known the man, you would see he is a spiritual giant for the faith but also kind, wise, and a phenomenal preacher. But that is not what I am writing about. I was a little caught off guard about the statement that Independent Fundamental Baptists or IFB's as you call us, are to spiritual and self righteous to come in contact with sinners or the lost. It is funny because any IFB that I have ever met was a dedicated soul-winner. We take the verses in Matthew 28:19-20 literally where the Bible says, "go ye therefore." Soul-winning is one of our fundamentals of the faith, and we are always in contact with sinners trying desperately to tell them about what Christ has done for them. I would have to say that was a false accusation about IFB's. A main part of my ministry week is knocking at least 50-100 doors to tell sinners about Christ. Do you do that sir? How committed are you to telling the lost about Christ or is it the fact that some are chosen to be saved and some are not?
associatetex:
Thanks for the comment. Let me take this one at a time.
First you say:
Well I have to say that I was a little offended when I saw your comments about Dr. John Goetsch, being that he led me to the Lord in Homiletics class. If you ever have known the man, you would see he is a spiritual giant for the faith but also kind, wise, and a phenomenal preacher.
Me now:
His article in that paper showed none of the above qualities that you commented on above. The article is an embarrassment for anyone that wants to be taken seriously exegetically.
You Now:
But that is not what I am writing about. I was a little caught off guard about the statement that Independent Fundamental Baptists or IFB's as you call us, are to spiritual and self righteous to come in contact with sinners or the lost.
Me Now:
Where did I say this? I don't think I said that you never come in contact with sinners. What I will say is that the IFB preachers are pretty strong in their teaching that they should never be seen out of their suit by their parishioners and that they must be "set apart" from them. Again, what you wear does not do this. If this is the attitude of the pastors it will trickle down to the others and while you may come in "contact" with sinners you will never be charged with being the friend of sinners, which our Christ was charged.
You Now:
I would have to say that was a false accusation about IFB's. A main part of my ministry week is knocking at least 50-100 doors to tell sinners about Christ. Do you do that sir? How committed are you to telling the lost about Christ or is it the fact that some are chosen to be saved and some are not?
Me Now:
Good question to ask, but I have to say that your 50-100 doors that you knock on will not save you or impress God. And, I will not tell you what I do to try and save sinners, that is between me and God, not bulletin board material to show my good works for all to know. One is Pharisaical and one is the attitude of a blood bought, thankful Christian...you be the judge biblically.
If you have anything more, please let me know, I would be happy to answer your questions.
Seth: First- You should be more careful about how you talk about true Men of God like Dr. John Goetsch. (I am reminded of the Prophet who was made fun of by a group of kids, who were eventually attacked by She-bears sent by God. I am not saying this would happen to you but I would be a little more a careful...) Second- Do you think it's ok to hang out with those who are not saved and participate in worldly activities with them? I was a little unclear about your statement about being "set apart". Now I believe it is good to become friends with a lost person, with the clear goal in mind of trying to eventually lead them to our savior! I DO NOT believe it is ok just to hang out with sinners just to let them know I accept them for who they are spiritually. The Bible says in Romans 12:2, And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God." The next verse, verse three, leads me to my last thought. The Bible says,"... not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think but to think soberly... ( seriously). By saying I knock 50-100 doors a week looking for lost souls is not really being prideful but truthful. When I asked if you knocked doors for lost souls, I was not being prideful, thinking of myself as being better than you but it was a serious(sober)question. I believe it does impress God when we do what he command and many times He reward us for it! I serve a good God not a slave-driver. I believe there will be crowns in Heaven that we can throw at Jesus feet for our obedience. The Bible says, "by their fruits you shall know them." That is not being Pharisaical, God says show your fruits of salvation. By the way I don't believe in works salvation,it's only by Christ's atonement on the cross and our repentance that we can be saved! (Romans 10:9 and so many more verses.) I do believe when we are saved we are suppose to be different inwardly and outwardly! It's not to be Pharisaical but so that others can see a change in us!
associatetex...
Bro...or sis...whomever...
Slow your role man. You tell me to "be careful about how I talk to true men of God"? Come on now...is he above correction? I hesitate to even comment about your ignorant comments on this matter. I wrote to "Dr." Goetsch many times asking for him to check out the article, which I believe he did with no response. I actually tried to contact him before I wrote any of the articles on the matter with no response.
And by just bringing up Elisha being made fun of the youth for being bald you show some wild extremism for Dr. Goetsch and exegetical content on your end.
As far as biblical content and exegesis, no one is above correction or study...take a gander at the Bereans with Paul and Priscilla and Aquilla with Apollos. I wasn't making fun of Dr. Goetsch's lame suits, or parted hair, which I have owned and sported in the past, I was simply writing a refutation on his bogus article that was ill informed in which he acted as though he spoke with some authority when in actuality he was speaking with complete ignorance. So this "true man of God" needed some serious correction from his bold remarks against theologies that are far above his head.
You also ask, "Do you think it's ok to hang out with those who are not saved and participate in worldly activities with them?
You would have to define worldly for me before I would answer this. If you mean secular...yeah, I would participate in secular activities with them. If you mean, would I participate in sin with them...no.
With your harboring on your door knocking and thinking that God is impressed with you made me laugh and wish that God would send some bears your way to at least growl at you. :)
you might want to check your works and ask why you do them. If it is because you believe God is impressed or because you earn grace or favor with God, you are mistaken of what the gospel stands for.
Keep coming and asking questions...I really don't mind conversing with you...
Late.
Hope this finds you well
Seth: Some of your comments did make me laugh, especially the one on parted hair and lame suits. Well some of us may have better taste in suits than you! :)
Anyways, I am a little amazed that you don't believe that our good works and fruits don't please God and provide blessings for us! Although we are not saved by our works ( For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.) He does bless our obedience. Not for our vainglory but for His glory and the fact that He loves us so much!
As far as believing that no man or preacher is above being corrected, I do not believe that at all. I just think He is right and you are wrong. God is willing that all should come to repentance not just the elect. I DO believe that God knows who will and will not be saved but I DON'T, neither do you. The fact that I do not know drives me to tell the lost and to fulfill the Great Commission as commanded by God in Matthew 28:19-20, GO YE, yes, you and me. How can you escape and explain away that clear statement, verse, and fact? It is not for vain-glory ,once again, but simply because we are commanded!
Before I answer the question about fellowship with the lost, what do you mean by secular? Yea, I would go out to eat with a lost person ( I have already, many times)and other types of activities but it would be limited time because I would not want my testimony to be influenced by worldly philosophy and thinking. My sole purpose would be to see that person saved.
Giving Him All The Glory! James Washburn
James. (good to have a name)
You said:
Anyways, I am a little amazed that you don't believe that our good works and fruits don't please God and provide blessings for us!
Me Now: Don't change my words. I choose them carefully. I said that God isn't impressed with our works, and was refuting your usage of that wording and attribute of God. You have now gone from using impressed to pleased. Those are totally different words. Is God pleased with our good works? If they are for his glory, then of course. If they are for our pride, then no. But impressed? No. God is only impressed with himself alone.
You Now:
God is willing that all should come to repentance not just the elect. I DO believe that God knows who will and will not be saved but I DON'T, neither do you. The fact that I do not know drives me to tell the lost and to fulfill the Great Commission as commanded by God in Matthew 28:19-20, GO YE, yes, you and me.
Me: I agree with all of this, so no argument here.
You Now:
It is not for vain-glory ,once again, but simply because we are commanded!
Me: I would disagree with this statement. We don't do things merely because we are told to, but because we love our God who died for us and cares for us. Same as a father/child relationship. If the child is doing things just because he is told and not out of love, then the father is not pleased. This is a huge difference, where one is Pharisaical and the other is true Christianity.
You Now:
Before I answer the question about fellowship with the lost, what do you mean by secular?
Me: Anything that is not distinctly Christian. Secular does not equal sin nor does secular=worldly (biblical definition of)
I really don't understand what this means:
and other types of activities but it would be limited time because I would not want my testimony to be influenced by worldly philosophy and thinking.
I don't know what you are getting at here.
Hope all is well.
Don't let the bears get you :)
hi seth,
my name is Conner and i will be attending west coast baptist college this fall where i will be learning homiletics from Dr. Goetsch. so i guess i am what you call an "IFB." and there are many questions that i would like to ask you. first of all, seeing as you are a calvinist, what makes you think that you are one of the predestined ones that will be going to heaven?
Conner.
Good question. And you can ask any question that you would like.
As far as how I know that I am predestined?
I know that I am one of the elect because of the life, death and resurrection of Christ.
Calvin said it very eloquently:
Jesus is the mirror of your election
Although, I believe in duty faith, it is all about Christ, not about me or my works. Although out of my faith, works will come because I love him. But my assurance of election is all based on Christ and what he has done, not based on what I have done.
Because let's be honest. The more and more we look to ourselves the more we see our sin.
This is what happened to Isaiah in Isaiah 6. He saw the Christ and fell to the ground saying, "I am undone."
So, the way I am assured of salvation is because of the work of Christ.
I think the real thing you guys need to do is get a life and start reaching people. Stop arguing about this, why does it really matter?
Anonymous.
Seriously? Use your same logic...don't waste your time reading blogs and commenting, get a life and start reaching people.
You act as if you know me. You act as if this is all I do.
Why does theology matter? Because Jesus is theology and tells us it matters.
So, thanks for telling me to get a life and reminding me to reach people...good thoughts, but misplaced to be honest.
Seth,
If you are sure that you are one of the elect because of Christ's work, than everyone can be one of the elect. Is that what you're saying?
Hypothetically we could say that everyone could be one of the elect from a human perspective, but the Bible tells us differently when it tells us that many are called and few are chosen, that the road leading to death is wide, etc, etc.
So, we know that not everyone is elect. We don't know who is elect and who is not, but the only way for me personally to know I am elect is to look to Christ and his work.
This has "consequences". My life is changed, my desires are changed, my mind is upward, I am affected by my sin inwardly, etc. But, these things don't guarantee my election or give me full assurance...only Christ can do this. I am fallen, in the flesh and very sinful.
Like Luther said, the more mature a man becomes the more his sin is before his face.
I hope this helps...keep asking away.
Seth,
I think you need to ease up on Anonymous. First of all, he's not a coward for hiding behind anonymity. That's just...um...humility. And he makes good points about how relying on God's grace as the monergistic cause, author, and perfector of our salvation just leads to "worldliness." Next thing you know, you'll be wearing your fedora cocked crooked and driving a motorcar. I just hope all this really great holy bean-counting is enough for Anonymous to keep his salvation in his hands and not drop it.
Oh, wait. Friend, if it's really in your hands,
YOU
WILL
DROP
IT.
Hello,
First, I would like to say that I am surprised at the childishness of many of these comments. It is okay to each voice our own opinions, but I thought that keeping it civil was just common nature to mature children of God, which I would hope is something that we all have in common.
Secondly, Dr. Goetsch is my father-in-law, and you can ask ANYONE who knows him(apparently none of you do), he is one of the wisest men I know, and he would never just throw a statement of opinion out there in a malicious manner. If he put it out there for the public to see, it is because God laid it on his heart.
So, what I am saying is, instead of critisizing a name that you dont even know, why not hold to his standard of wisdom and professionalism, and write an article yourself, (after much prayer, research, and Bible study, of course) of what you believe.
-A
This is why so many people are going straight to hell. The reason is that us Christians are so caught up in arguments and discussing things that really don't matter instead of focusing on soul winning! Invest your time in reading the Bible, in prayer & witnessing and you won't have time to argue on this nonsense.
Seth, I have to say I heard Dr. Goetch speak at Camp Joy in Whitewater, WI. and He was truly a blessing. His work has let to the Salvation of many, and two just during the week. This article you have posted and your slanderous comments have not led to the salvation of anyone, and only cause people to be turned off from a man that could lead them to repentance.
I would challenge you to search the scriptures and your own heart to see if you are really serving Christ the way you should be. Are you following his will by trying to lay a snare at the feet of those who bring the Gospel to the unsaved?
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 John 3:14
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