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Is Jesus the Eternal Son?
This is actually a very honest question. I have always thought of Jesus as being the eternal Son of God, but I am just looking to see what this means. I am not doubting that Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity is eternal, or that he is the eternal Word of God, the Logos. What my question comes down to is sonship. I know MacArthur got in some trouble in the 1980's for believing Jesus was only God's Son at the incarnation. My question to anyone who wants to chime in is, "Where can we show that he is the eternal "Son"?" And...Is this heresy if people don't believe in eternal sonship? When I say eternal...I am not speaking of current to future eternal, but eternity past before the incarnation.
I am asking based on some verses such as:
For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again,
“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?
Hebrews 1:5
I guess I mean...what does this verse mean if he is saying that "today I have begotten you"? And then speaking in future sense of the incarnation of "he shall be a Son to Me"?
Please play nice...these are just questions.
15 comments:
So we all agree that there are verses that refer Christ as God's begotten son.
What passages were you thinking of (if any) that suggest he was ever known as anything else? It's an argument from silence, isn't it?
Also, Hebrews 1:5 is referring to Psalm 2:7, which the NT interprets to be speaking about Christ's being raised - so maybe you could argue that he became begotten at his resurrection, but that doesn't jive with passages like JOHN 1:14,18 which refer to him as begotten before his actual resurrection.
I can see where Johnny Mac was getting his idea from, I don't see the necessity of making the leap, though.
Also, Hebrews 1:5 is referring to Psalm 2:7, which the NT interprets to be speaking about Christ's being raised - so maybe you could argue that he became begotten at his resurrection, but that doesn't jive with passages like JOHN 1:14,18 which refer to him as begotten before his actual resurrection.
I can see where Johnny Mac was getting his idea from, I don't see the necessity of making the leap, though.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. -- Hebrews 13:8
I feel dumb for not thinking of this first.
Seth -
great post - i love wrestling with these issues and this is a great one. The quote from Hebrews where God says to Jesus, "You are My Son, today I have begotten you" is from the second Psalm but is also placed in Acts 13:33. In the Acts context, this verse seems to be implying that when Jesus was raised from the dead this is spoken to Him which would make me think that this would make reference to where Jesus is spoken of as the "firstborn" from all creation; a place of honour and blessing. Is that what you've found also?
Another place i see eternal Sonship is, interestingly, in I Cor.15:27-28 where it speaks of all things being put in subjection to Christ EXCEPTING the One who put all things under His feet, and then goes on to say that the Son will also be [i assume here eternally] subjected to Him who put all things in subjection to Him, for the purpose it says that "God may be all in all." So, i see here the eternal submission of the Son to the Father and thus, His eternal role as Son. Thoughts?
p.s. i think Christ is, historically, referred to as the second member of the Trinity, not the third.
So...couple of things.
Jesus is called something else eternally...which is the Logos...the word of God...and is said to become flesh.
I am not asking is he eternal from the time he became incarnate until eternity forward...but asking if sonship is eternally backwards.
And, yes, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, but he wasn't always "carne" either...he became flesh only at the time of the incarnation...so my question is...was that the time then that he became God's Son.
I also know that Heb is referring to Psalm 2...but again...it is a future event when it states, "I will become" and "he shall be"
It seems to me that the Hebrews passage is a rhetorical question. It is saying that God never said those things to the angels -- That doesn't mean that he spoke those exact words to Christ -- But those are the words he would need to use to elevate the angels to Christ's level.
As far as Psalm 2 goes, it is an "Already, but not yet" eschatological issue. David had just a taste of the coming Kingdom, Peter in Acts 13 saw a bit more. And there is more to come -- But we know that it is happening by the Father through the Son, and these verses just are like markers to keep us from attaching our Hope on another cause.
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One important correction: The Son is the Second Person of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is the Third.
Chris.
Wow...must be my vacation mode brain...not sure how I made that mistake...now corrected.
Josh.
What would make you think that the Sonship of Christ is eternal before he was incarnate?
Not speaking of eternal from incarnation to eternal future..but preincarnation to eternal past.
Again...not saying that Jesus, the second Person isn't eternal...just speaking of his title as Son.
Wesley...just to show how much my brain is on haitus, I didn't even catch your "p.s." correcting me...wow.
Check out MacArthus's 'Reexamining the Eternal Sonship of Christ' http://bit.ly/bYvH07
This is an interesting question and one that I've never really considered before.
My question would be: what do we lose by denying Jesus' eternal Sonship? If we are still acknowledging his eternity, his deity and his manhood (and all that goes with these things), what do we lose by denying or gain by accepting his eternal Sonship?
[my apologies if this shows up more than once - I got an error message the first time around.]
I was reading Proverbs 8 this morning (I have a plan to read the proverb associated with each day of the month, each month through this callendar year), using the Geneva Bible. In this chapter the personification of Wisdom is speaking. there is a historical interpretation that Wisdom here is the pre-incarnate Christ. In the Geneva Bible, verses 23-25 read, "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, and before the earth. When there were no depths was I begotten, when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, and before the hills, was I begotten." And the side note for verse 23 reads, "He declareth the eternity of the Son of God, which is meant by this word, wisdom, who was before all time, and ever present with the father."
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