Contend Earnestly: How Should We Label Ourselves? Part 2

Wednesday, January 06, 2010

How Should We Label Ourselves? Part 2

The Usage of Christian (Christianos) in the New Testament

Surprisingly, the term is only used 3 times in the New Testament. Also, one needs to note that it never says in the Scriptures that disciples of Christ ever actually called themselves, or labeled themselves as Christians. The Scriptures are silent on who actually labeled them as such and never tells us that Christ’s disciples accepted the term to use as normative for the church as a whole. History tells us that it was a term, not of endearment, but of disparagement and one that the church finally accepted as a label. From there, the term grew to label the whole of the church as a religion called “Christianity.” But, history and tradition are not enough to make something prescriptive and normative for the church for all time, but merely are helps to show how others before us were convicted by the Spirit of God in their context and cultures.

Here are the references:

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 11:26

Agrippa replied to Paul, “In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.”
Acts 26:28

but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
1 Peter 4:16

One can see that the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, but we are not told by whom they were called this. (I am not saying that this isn’t of historical importance, or that the term should NOT be used. The fact that both Jews and Gentiles were seen as one group and labeled as Christians is tantamount to their new identity seen by those in the secular world. But, this does not make the label prescriptive) King Agrippa, a Gentile, uses the term to describe Paul’s people and then we have Peter who simply says that if one suffers because of the use of this derogatory name of “Christian” to not be ashamed of it and to glorify God in this. Which would be very appropriate after Peter just got done telling the church universal the following:

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
1 Peter 4:12


The Usage of Follower (akoloutheo) in the New Testament

So, we have three verses that use the term and no prescriptive case in any of them for the term “Christian.” But what about the term “follower of Jesus.” Is there any Scriptural evidence to the fact that one can call themselves a “follower of Jesus”? I think that we have already proven this fact by the mere understanding of the closeness with the term “disciple” as discussed above, but I still want to drive home the point with every verse that Jesus and the Gospels use to show that those who follow Jesus will inherit eternal life, not those who follow a new found religion.

And He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
Matthew 4:19

Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
Matthew 4:20

Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Matthew 4:22

Then a scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.”
Matthew 8:19

But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.”
Matthew 8:22

When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him.
Matthew 8:23

As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector’s booth; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he got up and followed Him.
Matthew 9:9

“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Matthew 10:38


Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Matthew 16:24

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Matthew 19:21

Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?”
Matthew 19:27

And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28

Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
Mark 1:18

As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting in the tax booth, and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he got up and followed Him.
Mark 2:14

And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mark 8:34

John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”
Mark 9:38

Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Mark 10:21

Peter began to say to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You.”
Mark 10:28


When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.
Luke 5:11

After that He went out and noticed a tax collector named Levi sitting in the tax booth, and He said to him, “Follow Me.”
Luke 5:27
And he left everything behind, and got up and began to follow Him.
Luke 5:28

And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Luke 9:23

John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us.”
Luke 9:49

And He said to another, “Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.”
Luke 9:59

Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.”
Luke 9:61

When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Luke 18:22

Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.”
Luke 18:28

Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him, glorifying God; and when all the people saw it, they gave praise to God.
Luke 18:43

One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.
John 1:40

The next day He purposed to go into Galilee, and He found Philip. And Jesus said to him, “Follow Me.”
John 1:43


Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
John 8:12

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:27
“If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
John 12:26

Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”
John 21:19

Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
John 21:22

These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:4


If this evidence isn’t overwhelming and one believes that we should unashamedly use every term associated with us in the Bible, there is one more thought to look into. It is one more term that is used more times in the Scriptures than “Christian” but is never used today because it stopped being used past the 1st Century, and today is a little known cult headquartered in New Knoxville, Ohio. It is the term “The Way” and is used 5 times in the following verses:

and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Acts 9:2

But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
Acts 19:9

About that time there occurred no small disturbance concerning the Way.
Acts 19:23

“But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;
Acts 24:14

But Felix, having a more exact knowledge about the Way, put them off, saying, “When Lysias the commander comes down, I will decide your case.”
Acts 24:22

Might have the early converts to Christianity used this term so that they were not culturally offensive? Who knows? We do know that it was a term used by Paul himself to describe the church. If we are to use every term described in the Bible, why not this one? Is it because we should allow those who are disciples of Jesus to ascribe the appropriate, culturally accepted, biblical term to themselves? I say yes. Why should we get angry at a Muslim who decides that a term that was used three times in the New Testament is too offensive to his fellow neighbor, when it has nothing to do with Jesus, but a Western religion?

I am putting forth that the Muslim who denies calling himself a Christian, but adopts the term “follower of Jesus” is being far more specific and possibly adhering more to biblical principles than the Westerner who calls themselves “Christians.”

We should praise them for teaching us this and not ostracize them or tell them, and others, that they are denying their Christ who bought them. We are being petty and allowing tradition to trump the Scriptures when we do this.

May we, in the West, learn from our brothers and sisters in the East, and follow in their footsteps as they follow in the footsteps of Christ.

“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 10:37-39



20 comments:

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

Seth -
this subject (reaching out to Muslims) appears to be half passion and another half an axe to grind. It's cool that you've taken such a missional interest in the Muslim people and that God has put them on your heart.
All that said, it seems sometimes (in my humble opinion) that your posts are a bit reactionary and like a protective older brother trying to shield his unpopular friend at recess. I think it's great that you want to educate people (specifically Christians) about the truths of what Islam actually teaches and dispelling myths, etc. My only caution would be that you don't go so far in your missiology that you lose sight of what following Christ truly looks like. In my mind, following Christ involves the willing submission and/or shedding of ANYTHING that hinders undivided emotion to Him. I'm not suggesting that not calling themselves "Christians" means they are not being faithful or that they somehow purposefully put themselves in danger (i.e. walk around with a 'flag' on). But my question is, are they truly identifying themselves with Christ in their culture that means what we would mean by calling ourselves Christians and so identifying with Whom we follow? Or are they using a culturally neutral terminology that keeps them out of hot water/argument/death. A western example might be a university student who says something like, 'i believe in God' ot 'i have my own faith' instead of saying I'm a Christian to avoid a specific identification which might bring persecution; the first two would not bring hardly any but the latter most certainly would.

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

that should read "undivided DEVOTION" not emotion ;)

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.

Good questions and insight...thanks for your care in your comment.

I will say that the example of the college student would be better be put of asking is it wrong for him to say that he is a "follower of Jesus" instead of saying he is a "Christian"?

I'm a Calvinist, but I always ask for clarification when someone asks if I am. I actually have a hard time saying I am a Calvinist because of all the weird thoughts about Calvinism.

This is not a true one to one ratio example when speaking of Christ, but we have to understand that cultures have words that have deep biases. We should not reprimand our brothers/sisters in Christ for deciding that one word is so culturally skewed in the negative to then choose another, albeit, more biblical, than choosing the one "acceptable" to Western Christianity.

Remember...what I am NOT saying is that we allow for wrong theological understandings. We need to train the new convert in a biblical (I stress biblical) understanding of what Christ says in the Scriptures of life and himself.

We also must allow one to come along in their walk and not expect them to be able to strip their whole way of life and culture right away (although this might happen to some).

So, if a new Muslim convert is still working out his new faith by reading the Qur'an and praying five times a day, we need to allow that, but point him to the truth of the Scriptures and also the truth of who he should be praying to and through. Will he/she eventually understand the different between a prophet of God and Muhammad? Yes. Will he/she eventually understand the difference between the Word of God and the Qur'an? Yes. Should we expect him to just drop everything right away and walk away from everything he knows? No. And we don't ask people in the U.S. to do that either. We disciple them to the truth and allow Jesus to sanctify them.

This is exactly what Philip did with the Ethiopian Eunuch. He brought him to faith, and allowed him to return to his culture so that Christ could sanctify him.

Hope this helps.

But, know that I am not saying that Islam is just an expression of the total truth...not at all. But I think we can reach out to them and build bridges and be friends with them to show them the truth.

We just can't let our culture get in the way of their TRUE walk with Christ as a new follower of Jesus.

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

I think i see what you mean. The problem i have is this: how genuine is the conversion of someone who trusts in Christ for salvation but continues to pray to/worship anything other than Christ? I'm not suggesting someone immediately abandon their culture/family/whatever or that they will be immediately sinless. But i would question whether the converted Muslim truly undersatnds what has happend to them if the continue worshiping Allah.
I'll put it in a Western context:
Let's say you have a "converted" homosexual who trusts in Christ for salvation and begins attending church, but doesn't feel the need to stop sleeping with his boyfriend, or dressing like a woman (i know i'm using huge stereoypyes but only to make a point), or whatever else is associated. Or say you have a "convert" from the church of Satan (which, ultimately, all who follow any but Christ are a part of anyways) who says he is a :follower of Jesus" now but wants to keep reading his Satanic bible and going to his church of Satan. Santification is one thing, but an unwillingness to repent of known sin (worshipping Satan) would make me very wary of giving that person any hope in their regeneration.
Make sense?

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.
I really think that what you are putting forth are apples and oranges...I think you knew that some...

Know this. That one who calls themselves a "follower of Jesus" are just trying to work out their salvation like the rest of us. And also know that the Satanic Bible and the Qur'an are far from each other. Like I have stated before, the Qur'an mentions Jesus about 100 times, all positive.

Do they still worship Allah? Of course...but understanding the truth of Jesus being their Saviour. Same with us as we worship God (Allah is the word for God in Arabic) understanding the truth of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Their theology will continue to develop as they are sanctified, but do understand that what you bring up is of some differences.

I will turn the tables on you a little though...

What about the homosexual man who has turned from their ways but still has lustful thoughts and then "trips" and has sex with their old boyfriend? Yet, repents and knows what they did was wrong.

Are they saved? Or, should we allow God to sanctify them and us stand beside them to love and help nourish them in the word of grace?

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

I'll answer your question before responding to the rest. Yes, of course they are saved! We could, of course, look for other evidences of grace in their lives to solidify such a confidence of salvation. but the point i feel you miss here and in your earlier comments is: why are they repenting? The Holy Spirit convicts them of sin (homosexual practice) and they turn from it to Christ like we all do from any sin. To ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit or not be convicted at all would both call regeneration into serious question. We are often exhorted in Scripture to come alonside the brother struggling in sin; being careful not to stumble ourselves in the process.

As to your other comments - I'll state my case plainly: I do not believe Christians and Muslims serve the same God/god. I appears that you do or, at least, think the issue is merely contextual. In no way do i expect "Western conformity" from a Muslim convert -that is not the Gospel - but i would expect conformity to Christ, submission to His Word, and fellowship in His church both local and global. A favorable mention of Jesus does not ease my spirit in the least, nor should it ease anyone's in my view. How favorably does the book of Mormon or the New World Translation (JW bible) mention Jesus, or the NY TImes? I'm still very concerned about what ELSE is being taught beside that!
This is so bog for me, it's hard to put it all here. Do i believe that God has elect amoung those who presently practice the Muslim faith - sure! But i also believe that when "the eyes of their hearts are enlightened" they will no longer be able to practice a false religion which, sorry, is as Satanic as ... well, Satanism. I always feel like i'm "missing" you somehow in these posts - or at least, i sincerly hope i am.

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.

Let me press some and know that I am only doing this to continue our conversation...I am not trying to bait you or confuse you in any way.

But, let's just think through this.

Do you believe that there are such things as Messianic Jews? Where they keep many customs from their Jewish heritage but point them to Jesus? Think festivals, Sabbath, and such things as Passover.

Do you believe that non Messianic Jews, just Jews, worship the same God as we do, but do not know Him because they refuse Jesus?

Do you believe the Jewish faith to be equated with Satanism? Or can we say that some are closer to the truth than others? All the while saying that they still do not have the total truth because of the lack of Christ, so they will not see heaven.

I will wait to hear your answers and then I'll move on to giving you some verses to consider within these questions. Please know...I am not trying to "bait you"...just want to try and show you where I am coming from.

Also...know this. I do not believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus is saved. He is THE WAY, there is no other. Deny him, you deny God and do not know the true God. But, I will show you why I separate "know" with "worship" after you answer some questions for me.

Thanks for taking time out of your day.

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

Wanted to take some time to think through what you wrote; glad i did.
I could cut and paste but ... nah!
Yes I believe there are Messianic Jews and yes they can point those there Jewish customs to Jesus. But right at that point i'll interject a question of my own: why would Messianic Jews continue in those customs, festivals and point them to Jesus? Answer: because they DO point to Jesus. All of the Old Testament points to Jesus and so for an Israelite who has had that "veil" lifted from their eyes, they can understand how all the customs and the law were pointing to the future fulfilment of Christ an dthen worhsip Him in those things. Paul says of the Jews in Rom. 10 that they have a "zeal for God but not according to knowledge" - i.e. they ARE worshipping the true God but not in a right way b/c they did not accept Christ as the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecy. I would even say the same for our elect Roman Catholic brothers and sisters - they could continue in much of that tradition b/c it IS a worship of the true God that was then poluted with Sacramentalism and Maryology to name a few.
I do NOT see what correlation you are drawing then between the Muslim faith and Judaism other than the fact that they are Monotheistic. The Muslims didn't begin with Yahweh and then move off into idolatry or whatever. They began with a demon and then, by common grace and revelation, adapted much of what sounds good and right to Christians only b/c all actual truth is God's.
Therefore, the JEw whose eyes have been enlightened can worship the God of Judasim b/c HE actually IS the same God we worship trully through Christ - in it's beginnings, God started Judaism. The Muslim CANNOT say the same.

I will press you back (though i do still want to see where you get Scriptural backing for your thoughts) and ask you to watch this short video (if you have not already). That said, happy to continue to grow in Christ and in knowledge with you, and i hope to continue with you.
much love -
Wesley.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1032_a_common_word_between_us/

Darlene said...

Seth,

You said, "May we, in the West, learn from our brothers and sisters in the East, and follow their footsteps as they follow in the footsteps of Christ."

I couldn't agree with you more! The Orthodox Church, which is the Eastern Church, has been such an inpiration for me to follow in the footsteps of Christ.

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.

Thanks again for your kind and patient response. I want to make sure I go through this carefully and clearly with you. With this kind of dialogue, I don't mind that we do it over a public comment section. If it was little more nasty, I would take it to the private realm. So, thank you for being patient and asking your questions in a godly manner.

You: Wanted to take some time to think through what you wrote; glad i did.
I could cut and paste but ... nah!
Yes I believe there are Messianic Jews and yes they can point those there Jewish customs to Jesus. But right at that point i'll interject a question of my own: why would Messianic Jews continue in those customs, festivals and point them to Jesus? Answer: because they DO point to Jesus. All of the Old Testament points to Jesus and so for an Israelite who has had that "veil" lifted from their eyes, they can understand how all the customs and the law were pointing to the future fulfilment of Christ an dthen worhsip Him in those things. Paul says of the Jews in Rom. 10 that they have a "zeal for God but not according to knowledge" - i.e. they ARE worshipping the true God but not in a right way b/c they did not accept Christ as the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecy. I would even say the same for our elect Roman Catholic brothers and sisters - they could continue in much of that tradition b/c it IS a worship of the true God that was then poluted with Sacramentalism and Maryology to name a few.

Me: Is not God the bearer of all truth? And, does not all truth come from God? Also, is God not everywhere in all countries and cultures from all time? If yes, then there are truths in all cultures about God, but not the ultimate truth without Jesus. This is what Paul is getting at when he says that,

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Romans 1:20


Because even the most pagan people have seen his attributes, it should not be a shock that God can be seen in cultures all over the world where no missionary has been. We see this very much allowed in the Scriptures as Paul uses the "unknown god" to point to the proper One. We see this with John who uses the term "logos" to point to God/Jesus, even though this term was very pagan and used by the Greeks to speak about this one god who was the overarching ruler in some way.

...continued

Seth McBee said...

...continued...

You: I do NOT see what correlation you are drawing then between the Muslim faith and Judaism other than the fact that they are Monotheistic. The Muslims didn't begin with Yahweh and then move off into idolatry or whatever. They began with a demon and then, by common grace and revelation, adapted much of what sounds good and right to Christians only b/c all actual truth is God's.

Me: Actually, your history is a little off with how Islam and Muhammad started off. Pre-Islamic history, like the people of Abram, were very polytheistic, and Muhammad was trying to bring them back to the true God of Abraham. God in Arabic is translated as Allah. So, when looking at what Muhammad was trying to do it is far from what you put in your comment. He knew of Jehovah/Allah because of the many Christians and Jews that he came across in Arabian trade routes. Again, there was, like the Greek "Logos", a god who was creator and above all the other gods in the Ka'ba named Allah. When Muhammad heard of this one God, mostly through some Jews and Christians, then others, he reformed. This is why those Jews and Christians that came across Muhammad early on, loved what he was doing in Arabia.

You: Therefore, the JEw whose eyes have been enlightened can worship the God of Judasim b/c HE actually IS the same God we worship trully through Christ - in it's beginnings, God started Judaism. The Muslim CANNOT say the same.

Me: Then neither could the Greek or the Gentile in how we celebrate Jesus through our weird traditions. Jews would have a monopoly on God.

You: I will press you back (though i do still want to see where you get Scriptural backing for your thoughts) and ask you to watch this short video (if you have not already). That said, happy to continue to grow in Christ and in knowledge with you, and i hope to continue with you.
much love -
Wesley.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1032_a_common_word_between

Me: That video is from January 2008, and Piper has changed his view some. I would encourage you to listen to the conference on (link)

Evangelicals and A Common Word.

As far as some of the other answers. Scripturally, the reason I believe that Muslims do worship the same God that we do, although they do NOT know him would be based on the many passages of people of the Jewish faith called "God fearers" in the NT. If that isn't enough, as it seems you give special precedence to the Jew on this, which is fine, take a look at Cornelius (Acts 10) and Lydia (Acts 16) were both Gentiles who are said to have worshiped and prayed to God, but yet were not knowing or loving Jesus yet. This would show that those who do not know Jesus can still worship God. But, as Jesus tells us no one can know the Father but through him. I draw a difference between worship and praying to God and knowing God.

I hope this helps, please ask away if you have further questions.

Peace.

Darlene said...

Wesley,

You made some excellent points! The Orthodox faith teaches that all Scripture points us to Christ. The Jews, such as the Apostles, saw that their Scriptures pointed to Jesus Christ as their Messiah and thus knew that He fulfilled all of the prophesies spoken about Him in their Scriptures.

Seth, let's switch the word Muslim and replace it with Hindu, or Buddhist. Would a Hindu who has converted to Christ or a Buddhist who has converted to Christ continue practicing their pagan beliefs? I would think that during the discipling process, the Hindu/Buddhist, would be instructed that they must put away their pagan practices.

As far as the Jewish person who converts to belief in Christ is concerned, much of this is a moot point because Jews no longer practice animal sacrifices. But if they did, they would have to be instructed that to do so is false worship. When they observe various feasts, the converted Jew recognizes Christ in all of them.

Btw, not all of the Quran speaks favorably about those who follow Christ. We are still considered infidels that need to be converted to Islam, which is a religion that rejects Christ's resurrection.

You did know that Islam rejects the resurrection of Christ, right? In fact, they believe it was an imposter who hung on the cross of Calvary and died, not Jesus Christ. When one looks closely, they will see that there is very little in common between the Islamic religion and the Christian faith, except that both are monotheistic. But even Muslims do not believe that the Christian faith is monotheistic, because they reject the Trinity and believe that the Triune God is a distortion of 3 gods.

Muslims, as well as many other false religions, reject Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. So, I cannot see an allowance for permitting a Muslim to continue worshipping their god after they have converted to Christ. Just as I would tell a Jehovah's Witness to turn away from their false beliefs, or a Mormon, or a Bahai, or a voo doo doctor, or a Wiccan, or a Christian Scientist or a...I think you get the picture, right?

Darlene said...

Seth,

I read your reply to Wesley and I understand a bit more where you are coming from. You said "there are truths in all cultures about God," making reference to the first chapter of Romans. I definitely agree with you here and so does Orthodox theology. The Orthodox teach that the truth about God is in a "seed form" in non-Christian religions. Many of the early fathers, such as Irenaeus and Clement believed this as well.

The Orthodox teach that because man is made in the image of God, and that image is not obliterated and completely marred, the human being has retained some of the truth of God in their person. As St. Augustine said, "There is a God-shaped vacuum inside of everyone."

I think the issue is how we should communicate with those who practice non-Christian religions. Just recently, I was talking with a Hindu and we were exchanging our beliefs. There were many things upon which we both could agree. However, when he referred to his belief in Karma, I explained to him that Christians do not believe in Karma and why they don't. I wasn't unkind, but I was truthful. And now a bridge has begun to be constructed upon which I will be able to speak more to him of Christ.

So, while there were various things upon which we could agree, I could not give my approval of those things in Hinduism that are opposed to the Christian faith. And so it is that we should be light and salt to those who are not in Christ.

Seth McBee said...

Darlene.
Your last two comments...I would agree with almost all of it. When you say, "I would expect the Hindu to put away their pagan practices/beliefs" I couldn't agree more...it's called sanctification and we just have pagan beliefs in America that look American, so we are used to them. Other cultures look more pagan, becuase they are not our culture.

So, great points all around.

I also like your conversation with your Hindu friend. Notice you don't start with, "Karma is from the devil". How would that have hindered your relationship?

Those kinds of things you are doing...EXACTLY what I am speaking of with Muslims.

Thanks again for the interaction.

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

Thanks for your response the other day. Still working through some of what you said.
Something you said to Darlene here stood out however and made me think that this is one place i'm missing you on: do you draw any differentiation between pagan beliefs/practices and cultural practices? I understand of course, that there is always crossover, but do you see a clear distinction as well?
Perhaps your answer to that question will help me understand your viewpoint more clearly.

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.

You: do you draw any differentiation between pagan beliefs/practices and cultural practices?

Me: Yes, very much so. Let me give you some examples...and know that we also must give time to allow these to work themselves out.

Pagan: Putting your hope in a football team, whereas your happiness depends on their success

Culture: Rooting for a football team by buying jerseys, buying tickets, getting athletes autographs, going nuts at games

Pagan: The use of the Qur'an as the last message of God to direct theology and practice

Culture: Praying five times a day, praying by prostrating oneself, having discussions about politics and religion in coffee houses

Pagan: The use of witch craft in some Islamic cultures around the world

Culture: Dressing in a modest way, which could include full robes and head coverings...such as a hijab.

Culture: Calling Jesus, Isa, or God Allah, or Dios, or Yahweh. This is more language than culture, but culture is involved in some ways.

Those things that are pagan above, we allow for sanctification. Those things that are cultural above, we never ask them to leave them behind but allow them to decide their own convictions in them.

Make more sense?

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

Seth -
ok , yes. Makes much more sense and i'm definitely with you ... up until the part where you write that it is merely cultural "Calling Jesus, Isa, or God Allah, or Dios, or Yahweh". The immediate problem there is that God has not revealed Himself by any of those other names, and last time I checked, God kinda cares about how He is worshiped as well as simply being worshiped. Beyond that, there should be lights and flags going all over the place when you write that statement b/c it sounds MUCH closer to a Oprah-esque spirituality to say things like 'God reveals Himself in a lot of different ways through a lot of different religions. you worship Jesus as God - that's great! He worships Allah as God and I worship Baal as God. They're all God, we're just calling Him by different names and we simply 'experience' him differently. Why get hung up on names?'
I'm not saying that's what you're saying but it is dangerously close to that. Yes, God is revealed to all mankind as Rom. 1 says, but He has also revealed Himself specifically through Scripture as how He wants us to know Him and worship Him.
As to cultural (non-sinful practices) Paul also talks about that in relation to eating the meat sacrificed to idols. He says, of course you can keep eating it or buying it in the market, but if someone invites you to dinner and says, ' this has been sacrificed to idols' NOT to eat it! The implication being that you are aproving of and endorsing something that is contrary to what you claim to bellieve. So, by implication, there is nothing wrong with praying five times a day prostrating yourself, etc. but if you're in a Mosque and wearing the 'cap' and no one else in the place knows you're praying to Jesus and not Allah, then you are by definition being a liar and 'culture' has then become your God b/c you then worship it's maintenance over making your faith in Christ clearly known.

Totally agree with the sanctification and how we have many "idols" and pagan worship in N. America. But to say 'God doesn't care what we call Him or how we worship Him' is simply not Biblical. He does care - enough to strike down thousands of His own chosen people when they don't worship Him properly as He has commanded, OR, when they try to carry over the worship of other gods intot heir worship of Him. All throughout the Bible, perticularly in the OT.

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.

I'm not sure you are getting what I am saying, or your aren't understanding simple language. Just being honest. Because based on your comment...we can't call 'elohim or ywhw by the English term, "God" .

Many use the term "God" without having a full understanding of his characteristics or the full understanding of the Trinitarian aspect.

So, if you want to stick to your guns here...you aren't allowed to call Him by God or Jesus...but only by elohim, ywhw, and Iesous as that is the original Hebrew and Greek.

God does NOT care in which language we call out to him in...he cares about our worship and knowing him.

Allah = God in Arabic
YWHW = God in Hebrew
Dios = God in Spanish
Theos = God in Greek
Isa = Jesus in Arabic
Iesous = Jesus in Greek
God = God in English
Jesus = Jesus in English

Get the point?

Also, you would have to explain why the apostle John used the term "logos" as a title for Jesus/God.

I hope this makes sense. You are thinking that "Allah" is only the God of Islam...that's just not true. If you actually translate the term, it means God in English.

I also know that some fundamental Muslims would disagree with me on this, but they would disagree with most that I write. :)

SnatchedFromTheFire said...

I think you're right. I think we are talking past each other right now and I am not (fully) getting what you are saying and you are not getting (fully) what I am saying.
I often struggle to communicate what I'm feeling well (working on that). You're contending for your thing and I'm hearing ecumenisism and 'emergent' crap b/c that's my "trigger point" and probably not at all where you're coming from. Maybe i'll give it a few days and take another look. Sorry if i've offended you.

Seth McBee said...

Wesley.
I am not emergent...I would consider myself an emerging follower of Jesus...I go to an Acts 29 church and believe that the contextualization of the gospel is a mandate from the life of Jesus, his apostles and his disciples throughout all of the New Testament.

As far ecumenical (which needs a definition on what you mean by it), I think you probably have more of a problem with someone who sounds syncretistic...which is good...you should...and so do I...we have to be careful as we dialogue and care for other cultures and religions that we never water down our orthodox beliefs and the truth of Jesus being the only way to God.

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