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Obedience or Obligation? Gospel vs. Religion
Recently I have received some comments from an anonymous person that is probably either an atheist or agnostic. Either way, they do not understand how I can say that I believe that ones inside influence or heart of man matter when dealing with the outward works of man. Seemingly, they find it hard to believe that this "trickery of the mind" really matters or is helpful and really doesn't find it much different than religion.
He actually went as far as to say that because I believe in the grace of the cross that must mean that my God will be happy if I remain in "grace" without real changes in my behavior. Which is interesting because Paul received the same questions when he preached on grace:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Romans 6:1-2
Now, I know that when speaking to a non-believer in Christ and the authority of the Bible their will be a bit of an unwinnable war between us. So, what I am not trying to do is win them to my side, but explain why I believe that it truly is a big deal to understand a life lived out because of grace instead of a life lived out to receive grace. One is the gospel and the other is historical and contemporary religion. There is a vast difference and it is shown quite clearly in the Scriptures.
Christ tells us this:
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28-30
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:15
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3
These statements are a big deal. Ones that I found very hard to understand while dealing with being a religious person hoping that my good works would at some point catch the attention of my Creator.
The real understanding of the cross and it's abundance is not trickery or some sort of mind games. It is real and one that is derived from the Spirit opening up, not only the mind, but the affections of the heart to the One who died for me. The outcome of this affection comes true obedience to the Christ, not some sort of obligation to pay him back in some sort of quasi payment plan.
We actually see this happen in real life as well which prove that this obedience out of gratitude and love is not mere mind games and trickery, but real obedience that isn't burdensome.
Why is it that God sets up pictures for us through our lives that depict what a real relationship with him is like? Think of these. Christians are called the bride of Christ, pointing to marriage and God is also called our Father, pointing to the structure of family.
When thinking of marriage and family, true obedience coming out of love is always distinguished from a mere obligation to be paid because one is a spouse or a child.
When thinking of my marriage, I do those things that please my wife because I love her. I do these things out of gratitude for her love for me and our close relationship through the knitting of souls in marriage. I will at times do the dishes, buy her flowers, take her out, clean up after myself, make the bed, etc. not because this is an obligation in marriage, but because I love her. I want to please her, I want to make her happy and do those things which bring her pleasure. These things are not burdensome, but are done because of my deep rooted love for my wife. I have asked my wife, "If I cheated on you, would you divorce me?" She responded, "although it would be hard, I would do all I could to stay married and honor our marriage and God." Now, do I go off cheating on her to take advantage of the situation? Or, do I understand how much I love her and how much she loves me and honor her?
The same is with Christ. I don't do good things because if I don't he won't love me. I do the things of Christ because of the great love he displayed for my sake on the cross and the resurrection. This is not trickery of the mind, but a correct understanding of the gospel. If it was mere trickery, then what is the difference between a husband who does things for his wife's pleasure out of love and the one who does those things so the wife won't divorce him and take half of his money?
The same can be seen within the structure of the family. As a parent, I don't want mere obedience, no parent truly does. Now, is it nice when our kids are obedient instead of unruly? Yes, but does this prove that they love us? Not at all. You can have two kids that do the same chores with perfection and one could be doing it because they love you and the other could be doing it to stay out of trouble or with the hope of a greater payment in allowance, treats, privileges, etc. And, for the parent, this is a huge deal. When my son does things for my wife because he wants to see her happy, even in little things like making his bed, it is a vast difference if he is doing them so he can get ice cream. One shows a deep understanding of love for his mom, the other shows that he is merely doing the chore to receive payment. The difference is like having a wife that maintains the house because she loves you and a maid that comes in once a week and barely knows you and could care less about you (besides receiving a paycheck).
This is the same with Christ. God doesn't want obedient children that just want to stay out of trouble (hell or judgment) or to receive God's gifts of a good life (which may or may not happen). God desires for the person's heart to be changed in a loving understanding of the depths of redemption that was paid on their behalf. He isn't using trickery of the mind, but is changing the heart to be knitted to his own. This is why when someone understands this love of God, God's commandments are not burdensome. Because God's love and approval of me, has nothing to do with my obedience, but of Christ's obedience.
The proof is found directly in the Bible. Just look at David vs the Pharisees. To be honest, the Pharisees were far superior to David in outward works. David was an adulterer, murderer, depressed and sort of skitzophrenic in his relationship with God. But David was a man that was said to be a man after God's own heart. Why? Because he knew that God was his redemption and although he tried his hardest to live that out, he knew himself to be a sinner in need of help from his Father and future Bridegroom.
On the other hand, you have the Pharisees that were close to perfect on the outside, but Christ called them white washed tombs and sons of the devil. Why? Because they did their works out of obligation for payment of eternal life and God's gifts, not because they loved God.
This isn't trickery. This isn't some sort of mind game. This is true biblical love that is shown in God's work on our behalf, so that we could display his work to others.
King David puts it this way:
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.”
Psalm 40:6-8
But, when you think of this: didn’t God say that burnt offerings and sin offering were required? But notice that David says he does these things not to earn God’s favor but does it because he delights to do God’s will, because he loves God.
On the other hand, you have the Pharisees who did good works for payment from God. Jesus had this to say to them:
He actually went as far as to say that because I believe in the grace of the cross that must mean that my God will be happy if I remain in "grace" without real changes in my behavior. Which is interesting because Paul received the same questions when he preached on grace:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Romans 6:1-2
Now, I know that when speaking to a non-believer in Christ and the authority of the Bible their will be a bit of an unwinnable war between us. So, what I am not trying to do is win them to my side, but explain why I believe that it truly is a big deal to understand a life lived out because of grace instead of a life lived out to receive grace. One is the gospel and the other is historical and contemporary religion. There is a vast difference and it is shown quite clearly in the Scriptures.
Christ tells us this:
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28-30
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:15
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3
These statements are a big deal. Ones that I found very hard to understand while dealing with being a religious person hoping that my good works would at some point catch the attention of my Creator.
The real understanding of the cross and it's abundance is not trickery or some sort of mind games. It is real and one that is derived from the Spirit opening up, not only the mind, but the affections of the heart to the One who died for me. The outcome of this affection comes true obedience to the Christ, not some sort of obligation to pay him back in some sort of quasi payment plan.
We actually see this happen in real life as well which prove that this obedience out of gratitude and love is not mere mind games and trickery, but real obedience that isn't burdensome.
Why is it that God sets up pictures for us through our lives that depict what a real relationship with him is like? Think of these. Christians are called the bride of Christ, pointing to marriage and God is also called our Father, pointing to the structure of family.
When thinking of marriage and family, true obedience coming out of love is always distinguished from a mere obligation to be paid because one is a spouse or a child.
When thinking of my marriage, I do those things that please my wife because I love her. I do these things out of gratitude for her love for me and our close relationship through the knitting of souls in marriage. I will at times do the dishes, buy her flowers, take her out, clean up after myself, make the bed, etc. not because this is an obligation in marriage, but because I love her. I want to please her, I want to make her happy and do those things which bring her pleasure. These things are not burdensome, but are done because of my deep rooted love for my wife. I have asked my wife, "If I cheated on you, would you divorce me?" She responded, "although it would be hard, I would do all I could to stay married and honor our marriage and God." Now, do I go off cheating on her to take advantage of the situation? Or, do I understand how much I love her and how much she loves me and honor her?
The same is with Christ. I don't do good things because if I don't he won't love me. I do the things of Christ because of the great love he displayed for my sake on the cross and the resurrection. This is not trickery of the mind, but a correct understanding of the gospel. If it was mere trickery, then what is the difference between a husband who does things for his wife's pleasure out of love and the one who does those things so the wife won't divorce him and take half of his money?
The same can be seen within the structure of the family. As a parent, I don't want mere obedience, no parent truly does. Now, is it nice when our kids are obedient instead of unruly? Yes, but does this prove that they love us? Not at all. You can have two kids that do the same chores with perfection and one could be doing it because they love you and the other could be doing it to stay out of trouble or with the hope of a greater payment in allowance, treats, privileges, etc. And, for the parent, this is a huge deal. When my son does things for my wife because he wants to see her happy, even in little things like making his bed, it is a vast difference if he is doing them so he can get ice cream. One shows a deep understanding of love for his mom, the other shows that he is merely doing the chore to receive payment. The difference is like having a wife that maintains the house because she loves you and a maid that comes in once a week and barely knows you and could care less about you (besides receiving a paycheck).
This is the same with Christ. God doesn't want obedient children that just want to stay out of trouble (hell or judgment) or to receive God's gifts of a good life (which may or may not happen). God desires for the person's heart to be changed in a loving understanding of the depths of redemption that was paid on their behalf. He isn't using trickery of the mind, but is changing the heart to be knitted to his own. This is why when someone understands this love of God, God's commandments are not burdensome. Because God's love and approval of me, has nothing to do with my obedience, but of Christ's obedience.
The proof is found directly in the Bible. Just look at David vs the Pharisees. To be honest, the Pharisees were far superior to David in outward works. David was an adulterer, murderer, depressed and sort of skitzophrenic in his relationship with God. But David was a man that was said to be a man after God's own heart. Why? Because he knew that God was his redemption and although he tried his hardest to live that out, he knew himself to be a sinner in need of help from his Father and future Bridegroom.
On the other hand, you have the Pharisees that were close to perfect on the outside, but Christ called them white washed tombs and sons of the devil. Why? Because they did their works out of obligation for payment of eternal life and God's gifts, not because they loved God.
This isn't trickery. This isn't some sort of mind game. This is true biblical love that is shown in God's work on our behalf, so that we could display his work to others.
King David puts it this way:
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.”
Psalm 40:6-8
But, when you think of this: didn’t God say that burnt offerings and sin offering were required? But notice that David says he does these things not to earn God’s favor but does it because he delights to do God’s will, because he loves God.
On the other hand, you have the Pharisees who did good works for payment from God. Jesus had this to say to them:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ ”
Matthew 15:8-9
Jesus wants your heart, not merely your works. But know this: out of a heart that loves God and desires him most, good works will come.
If there is a difference in those relationships that we deal with daily, then we must ask why is there a difference and where did it come from? It came from the God who created us for his glory to do his will because he first loved us.
This isn't some mind game that is made up. This isn't trickery. This is real obedience to One that I love and adore. To him, that makes all the difference, to the homeless guy who gets fed, it doesn't matter...he just wants food.
So, although it looks like the same thing to someone who does not know God, they don't know the heart of the man. So, although two people can be doing the same good works and both look holy, one of them could be doing it out of a loving obedience and the other out of obligation for payment.
11 comments:
i would like to point out that there is a real difference between a loving relationship between your wife/children and "god".
the difference is this:
your relationships with humans are mostly established on tangible grounds which fully engages your five human senses that form the windows or connection to your soul.
whereas a relationship with "God" and a famous historical figure is purely transcendental in nature.
does the latter constitute a "trickery of the mind"? it is possible isn't it?
take for instance a pagan relationship with his god. what would you say to such a person if this pagan claims to have a "loving obedient relationship" with his god?
since his "god" cannot be the real god from your vantage point, you would probably conclude that this "obedient relationship formed out of love" with his god cannot be by "grace" and may even possible be a "fickle of his imagination" or even "blind faith"?( such a relationship cannot be scientific appraised or measured unlike in a human to human relationship therefore any reciprocation of love can only stem from self programming or auto suggestion etc)
now if a muslim will similarly testify to you as what you have explained, would you believe him?
what does this prove at the end of the day?
Anonymous.
First of all, if you do not believe in God, there is nothing for you to base that you are truly living out your five senses or just imagining the whole thing...what makes you believe that these things are actually real? Even Renaissance, modern and postmodern thinkers and philosophers have realized this as they have tried to find value or reality without having a supreme being that shows forth this truth.
This is where the God of the Bible and agnosticism and atheism truly split...it's found in the Imago Dei.
As far as the pagan god analogy, is this real? yes, I believe it is a real relationship, but just ask why the relationship is established, and throughout history it is always to appease this god through different means of works or good or historically through sacrifice of some sort. I, of course, believe it is very real because there is a real force, actually person, behind it and that is Satan.
In regards to the Muslim, again his religion is set up with many rules he must follow so that his good works outweigh his bad ones on the great scale in the end. His works come from obligation, not out of the effects of grace and love.
You keep referring to this human to human relationship and say that these can be scientifically proven...on what grounds can you scientifically prove motive? How can you prove a relationship of love vs obligation? You cannot.
Some sort of faith is involved within the realm of relationship.
I am not sure if you are married, but if you are, you can never know for sure if your wife truly loves you, or is just "sticking it out" or has an ulterior motive. This takes some faith based on evidence provided by your wife.
You act as though Jesus and the Bible is totally concocted with no evidence to support it. If so, you have much to read my friend to see the historicity of the Scriptures. Just scientifically speaking, it stands alone far above any book of antiquity.
Even secular scholars agree to the Scriptures attestation.
At the end of the day what does it prove?
It proves once again, that with little insight, the logical fallacies that run deep in religion and the secular scope of those against the God of the Bible.
Thanks for the comments...and thanks for taking time out of your day to converse and think through these things.
"In regards to the Muslim, again his religion is set up with many rules he must follow so that his good works outweigh his bad ones on the great scale in the end. His works come from obligation, not out of the effects of grace and love. "
speculative and bias. i don't think you are in a position to comment here or speak for a devoted muslim( they too will have stories about a "loving god" as you do).
"You keep referring to this human to human relationship and say that these can be scientifically proven...on what grounds can you scientifically prove motive? How can you prove a relationship of love vs obligation? You cannot."
relations with humans are often TANGIBLE in nature. taking your relationship with your wife for example: you loved her maybe because she loved you more. but how do you know she loved you?
she demonstrated this love in a TANGIBLE WAY didn't she? if she faked it, can you not tell? sooner or later, it will come through her TANGIBLE actions.
with god, how do you measure that ...scientifically?
this kind of transcendental relationship is vulnerable to deception.
that said, i am not disputing with the historical jesus. but as to what he actually said or did, no one, and i mean no one can 100% delve into jesus's motives or whether there was a secret agenda hidden in what he had said/did or didn't do or for that matter,whether the account from "witnesses" were accurate etc.
there are many historical and theological disputes over the account of the bible and therefore, i remain open minded(wary of bias account).
but at the end of the day, we judge the fruits of such teachings and the outcome has been generally mixed - with a trail of....bloodbath.
i don't believe christianity has gotten the gospel right!
Anonymous:
I'll try and answer these in order.
You
speculative and bias. i don't think you are in a position to comment here or speak for a devoted muslim( they too will have stories about a "loving god" as you do).
Me:
Neither speculative nor bias. A devoted Muslim has to do works in order to receive grace, or heaven. I am sure they see God as loving, but that doesn't remove the fact that their tenants, which any devout Muslim would agree on, works are essential to the reception of grace. So, your comment isn't really valid in this discussion.
As far as your question in regards to being tangible. I still am not sure how you scientifically prove any relationship and how you can actually verify you being a real person with any value if based on anything besides God created you in his image and putting forth that you have value. A world without a creator has no way to put value on a person and no tangible or scientific reasoning to base the fact that he or she is actually alive instead of some sort of dream world...this is actually one of the reasons movies like the Matrix was written. Have you read agnostic and atheistic scholars on this issue? This is why Hitler and Stalin were able to put forth their mission and ways...because of the devaluing of human life by Darwin. If we are mere chance, there is nothing that puts value on one human life over another. The survival of the fittest must win out.
Also, the way that I tangibly attest my relationship with God is the same as I tangibly attest my grandmother's love for me when she died while I was only 3 years old with no remembrance of her. Eyewitnesses and accounts by others. Because God is greater and does not die and is active in my life, I cannot only go off of other accounts of him from centuries, but I can also give accounts of his love shown in my own life.
You
there are many historical and theological disputes over the account of the bible and therefore, i remain open minded(wary of bias account).
Me I know of these, have weighed many of the debates and personally, obviously, have found them very wanting of any logical, philosophical or scientific proof against the Scriptures.
You
but at the end of the day, we judge the fruits of such teachings and the outcome has been generally mixed - with a trail of....bloodbath.
i don't believe christianity has gotten the gospel right!
Me
I agree to an extent. Because what is interesting is that Christianity puts forth that we are depraved sinners in desperate need of a Saviour. So, we know we will disappoint yet Christ will not. You have to remember that one of our chief examples of a godly man in King David was a murderer, adulterer and a liar...but because of his belief in God and his redemption he is found to be a great man of God.
We strive to please our God because he first loved us, but we know we are jacked up. We know that even if we lived a life filled with good works, that we still couldn't pay for our own redemption. We are not excited about our sin, or excuse it as necessary or admirable. But, we do know that we will always stumble and ask that our lives are not the ones put on display, but Christ's.
And, to let you know...I agree that Christians have messed up and not gotten the gospel right. I am sorry for whatever happened to you personally that has set you against those of Christ, I truly am. For all I know, I could be one of them...nothing I can say or do will convince you, nor am I trying.
I just want to give you my understandings and my conclusions.
I am jacked. I need an alien righteousness.
Peace.
Thanks for taking time to talk.
Anon:
A couple more things:
"tangible" relationships by humans can also be very deceptive and many examples of people that were "duped"...so that argument really holds no water.
As far as a tangible love for us that God has shown us is found directly in the cross of Christ. Further...there has been no greater display of love for a people than the cross.
You act as if relationships are based primarily on tangible aspects...I would disagree and most people in the scientific field of psychology would as well. Again...the mind and the spirit, etc. are not tangible in any way...
We know that they are true through tangible proofs per se...same is said of God and the tangible way he has shown his mind and his love towards us over and over again.
you said:
As far as a tangible love for us that God has shown us is found directly in the cross of Christ. Further...there has been no greater display of love for a people than the cross.
You act as if relationships are based primarily on tangible aspects...I would disagree and most people in the scientific field of psychology would as well. Again...the mind and the spirit, etc. are not tangible in any way...
my say:
you need a bit of imagination to live on "historical love".
recently, i came across a book title " love is a verb" and i thought, how apt and true.
the irony with christianity and her adherents is that "love" is very much a "historical experience".
not true? how many times have you been told by christians that "god loves you" or "jesus loves you"?
there is plenty of this kind of "love" from the pulpit and the surprising thing is, many actually buy( tithe) into it.
now what is wrong with that, you asked?
well, people who live by or swear by " third person love" don't actually do anything( in other words, they pay lip service)!
so when someone has a problem,you would often hear the christian spout things like...god loves you or jesus loves you( as oppsoe to... I love you or will ACT or help you).
as a result, the churches are filled with people who worship and mouth sweet nothing as the hungry and the oppressed in the world die by the thousands yearly.
clearly, they have missed the point of the cross and the message of christ.
firstly, christ message was a FIRST PERSON love. he said when you see the hungry, you(FIRST PERSON) feed them - not tell them to go pray or that god loves you and then walk away.
when you see someone oppressed or imprisoned, you visit them and lift their spirit or offer to do something TANGIBLE to help them and not tell them god loves you or pray that god will supernaturally delivers you(the charismatics make plenty of money out of that) like most do without DOING ANYTHING.
i can go on but you get the idea don't you?
now that, seth, is TANGIBLE love or PRACTICAL LOVE.
people(the world) mostly respond to that kind of love and not...serenaded by people who warm the pews, comforting each other with... "god loves you" in the third person" and "praise jesus" etc.
imagine, if your wife's love for you is in spirit rather than being physically there((tangibly expressed) for you when you need her,i am sure, your marriage will be short lived.
that said, the cross of christ has been grossly misinterpreted by christianity!
his death represented the death of an old order(a structural SIN) base on top down rule((Also found in institutional churches or local churches) and not one that rid you of your "guilty conscience".
Anonymous.
I don't disagree with 90% of what you said...I agree completely...we (Christians) are supposed to be the hands and feet of Christ to a dying world...totally agree...we are to show tangibly what Christ does, did and will do spiritually.
Your last part is just a mere rant from you though, with no merit.
From a historical viewpoint and the fullness of Scripture, your statement that Christ's death did not remove the obstacles of sin is reckless.
What I find interesting with you is that we are closer than you think of the understanding of Christ's commands of his people. And again, we'll mess up, and so will you..that's not the point, it is what are you and I going to do with all of our screw ups, because they are quite larger than our good deeds.
Thanks again for stopping by...if we don't chat again, have a great weekend.
seth,
it's the 10% you disagree with that is the cause to the gross hypocrisy in the church and basically, incapacitated the christian believers - they have mostly become supernaturally useless.
in fact, the longer you hold on to your dogmas by dead biblical scholars of the past, the more you prolong the religious bloodshed in the world.
that 10% you disagree with actually supports my premise and observation.
Yeah...I didn't mean to make the 10% seem petty...as I know it is a huge deal...what I completely disagree with you on is the thought that the understanding of the atoning sacrfice of Christ on the cross on our behalf is what is to blame for all the bloodshed. That is completely false and built upon mere speculation.
The bloodshed within Christianity happens the same way that has happened within atheism, Hinduism and Islam...overzealous prideful people that find themselves as more important than the next guy.
The atonement actually pushes away from these ideas and puts everyone on the same footing which should cause humility and care for the other guy.
You are getting the teachings and understandings of the cross mixed up with dumb asses who are reckless with their focus on themselves and not on Christ and his mission.
Big difference.
chrsitianity charged that your humanity is condemned by god( you will always be human no matter how much "blood" in apply on yourself) which is ridiculousand god never said that(stop and think about that)
we lusts because we are human - you can't erase that or even change that. however, the LUSTS in the garden of eden is an EXPLOITATIVE LUSTS employed by those who desire to rule over us or be GOD OVER US(religiously or otherwise).
jesus death puts the FIRST ADAM ORDER to death so that we can be freed and live by the NEW ORDER.
that in short, is the atonement of christ which i hold.
now if you subscribe to traditional evangelical beliefs, you will constantly be INWARD looking(useless) and JUDGMENTAL of others or their humanity.
christianity CONDEMNS you first(FALSELY) before she offers you salvation because that's how sudjugation of the blinded is done.
you don't make friends by condeming people(being judmental) or their humanity you know.
Thank you (for sharing). I understand; expressions of gratitude may be preceived as works, but really they are a reasonable way to say "Thank You." Some people say 'thank you' with their mouth; some people say 'thank you' with their life.
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