tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post3979024970495052772..comments2023-10-25T02:18:43.690-07:00Comments on Contend Earnestly: Q & A from TurretinfanSeth McBeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-70691231984889143862007-12-14T08:23:00.000-08:002007-12-14T08:23:00.000-08:00Seth, since I still don't see answers to the follo...Seth, since I still don't see answers to the followup questions above, I'm asking an open question on my own blog.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2007/12/open-question-to-seth-on-atonement.html" REL="nofollow">Here</A>Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-66343723311288309832007-12-07T18:01:00.000-08:002007-12-07T18:01:00.000-08:00When a question is raised by the one I am "working...When a question is raised by the one I am "working" like the analogy of a fisherman, fishers of men fishing for the souls of the Elect, and I am so "anointed" to say it, of course, I want to give evangelical evidence to Christ's death, burial and resurrection,:<BR/><BR/>Act 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. <BR/><BR/>Those given ears to hear hear, now don't they? You have, haven't you? I heard. In fact I will quote the verse "I read" that touched my heart and opened it to Kingdom realities:<BR/><BR/>Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." <BR/><BR/><BR/>I have been outspoken, most foolishly and have caused sheer terror sadly at times in my zeal and boldness and courage to engage an unwilling public in fundamental Biblical Christianity and most likely the only good to come from it is hiding behind infamous Scriptures like we do in Romans 8, after all the damage, God knows how to cause it to turn out for Good, right? :(,,,:)!<BR/><BR/>When I think about your question and what the purpose of it is, I too wonder, is this a set up question to engage me in frivolous and foolish discussion about evangelism or do you want to engage me in a heart felt discovery as the Holy Ghost might want in finding our place in demonstration in our sphere of influence as the Evangelical Elect Angel does as is indicated here:<BR/><BR/>Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. <BR/>Rev 14:7 And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water." <BR/><BR/>I use to try and "win" souls I perceived to be "sitting" in darkness and argue them into the Light!<BR/><BR/>I have since realized that I and you are not asked to do that or try to convince anyone they are sinful! Paul wrote this:<BR/><BR/>1Co 10:26 For "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof." <BR/>1Co 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. <BR/>1Co 10:28 But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience-- <BR/>1Co 10:29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? <BR/>1Co 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? <BR/>1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. <BR/>1Co 10:32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, <BR/>1Co 10:33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Now I proclaim the Truth letting the Faith given to me to be understood because I am convinced now after thirty plus years of "walking by Faith" that I too have the "Gift of Faith" so that I am confident that this is the outcome of my evangelism, some good results and not so good:<BR/><BR/>Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. <BR/>Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. <BR/>Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; <BR/>Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover." <BR/>Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. <BR/>Mar 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.]]<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>As for your frustration with me, I can only say that when I find that I am being frustrated by someone I have really in a sense lost my way with Christ and kicked Him off His Throne as My Federal Head and have taken an unauthorized sitting where I do not belong! We are the Lord's Servant and should not strive as Paul teaches us, yes?:::><BR/><BR/> 2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. <BR/>2Ti 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. <BR/>2Ti 2:22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. <BR/>2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. <BR/>2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, <BR/>2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, <BR/>2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. <BR/><BR/>Here's a little scenario that hopefully conveys my point? When My Heavenly Father sees me sitting on Jesus' Throne, and He sets His Loving Eyes on me and I notice He notices me sitting there, I am embarassed because now I have to go to another seat in the presents of all His guests, kinda like the humiliating feeling Jesus describes here:::><BR/><BR/>Luk 14:7 Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, <BR/>Luk 14:8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, <BR/>Luk 14:9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this person,' and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place.<BR/><BR/>I honestly believe human events recorded are events I and you can experience too, events as described here at Acts 13 and Acts 14:<BR/><BR/>Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." <BR/>Act 13:3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. <BR/>Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. <BR/><BR/>One of my "spiritual" mentors pointed to this one verse on a number of occasions to assist me in denying myself and walking in His "Spirit":<BR/><BR/>Php 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me--practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. <BR/><BR/><BR/>This verse here, Philippians 4:9 has emboldened me to receive from you and your guys in this debate because what was true for Paul the Apostle is also a standard that can be true for you too.<BR/><BR/>So I am happy to learn and receive and in this case, "read" what is posted here, test it and see if the God of Peace is in it or the words are simply as the Prophet said, clouds without any water in them!<BR/><BR/>MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-75168356246686252722007-12-07T09:06:00.000-08:002007-12-07T09:06:00.000-08:00Nat. Sorry that I was so frustrated. My frustrati...Nat. <BR/>Sorry that I was so frustrated. <BR/><BR/>My frustration is not in the fact that you don't understand the unlimited/limited position per se. My frustration came from the fact of you seemingly ignoring us as we continue to affirm a limited piece of the atonement. <BR/><BR/>You see the difference? As far as why I am frustrated? <BR/><BR/>And yes...I was asking, do <B><I>you</B></I> say to people, "Jesus died for your sins."Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-78814256696441854822007-12-06T21:18:00.000-08:002007-12-06T21:18:00.000-08:00grrrr, geesh, hasty, I apologize.difficulty with t...grrrr, geesh, hasty, I apologize.<BR/><BR/>difficulty with this:::><BR/><BR/>michael, :(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-11814248613410639822007-12-06T21:16:00.000-08:002007-12-06T21:16:00.000-08:00Sethhonestly, I am having a difficult with this:un...Seth<BR/><BR/>honestly, I am having a difficult with this:<BR/><BR/>unlimited/limited.<BR/><BR/>How clear is that?<BR/><BR/>It is confusing?<BR/><BR/>With as humble and sincere gentleness, you are going to have to unconfuse that phrase for me.<BR/><BR/>I want to open up other areas of Scripture, that to me would try to do that, but I have refrained. I have been choosing to remain reading each of those who are here with you and you in putting your understanding forth. I know when I have commented I have wondered off topic some. I apologize.<BR/><BR/>I am grateful you let an unlearned dimwit such as I am to comment here in the debate. I know I can be hard to read. I have tried to be more singular and not as amalgamated in my wording so as to keep my points succinct. <BR/><BR/>Have I improved any?<BR/><BR/>By the way, for me, the best help you have given me in understanding you was here with this q and a, your minute commentary and then quoting a scholarly or close to it scholarly work of historical precedence which says what your point is.<BR/><BR/>For me though, I would encourage you to make a commentary of the Very Scripture/s which, in your mind, you believe the "Holy Ghost" has illuminated and enlightened you on that supports your eisegesis comments and put that next to your comparative exegesis.<BR/><BR/>I know the voice of the Holy Ghost. I spend plenty of time daily just pondering and meditating on His Word in the "Spirit". Don't you believe if you are accurately expressing His "Heart" on the matter, He would bring a "witness" to it Himself when one such as this commenter prays to Him for clarity and confirmation of what you are putting forth as direct revelation from Him? He too is God and learns nothing.<BR/><BR/>Even still you have to admit there is no easy common unity here among our contemporary brothers or those who now know for certain whether their views and commentary were correct back a hundred, two hundred, a thousand or so years passed?<BR/><BR/>So, please, I am grateful for all the patience you have applied to my wretched but now elected soul in this debate and thank you sincerely for doing it and providing some time with merit and substance for me during the hours of the day and night these many days passed.<BR/><BR/>thank you!<BR/><BR/>I appeal to you brother, work with me and help bring clarity where the confusion is and I state it as confusing to me as you do when I post something you deem confusing to you or silly or off point. <BR/><BR/>What confuses me is this:::><BR/><BR/>It's here: your phrase, "unlimited/limited" atonement.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I don't get it, yet.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I have been chomping at the bit to ask, as I have heard and never looked beyond what I heard, was there seriously a time in history where there was a debate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin within the reformed or other, if you know?<BR/><BR/>with respect and sincerity<BR/>michael<BR/><BR/>oh yeah, was TF's response accurate to you regarding what was now to be a typo of Shedd at P.441?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-84940359103792718742007-12-06T20:01:00.000-08:002007-12-06T20:01:00.000-08:00Nat.I am seriously going to scream. I am going to ...Nat.<BR/>I am seriously going to scream. <BR/><BR/>I am going to be as patient as I can with this comment, so bear with me. I wouldn't be as perplexed by your statement if you had not read the entirety of this debate, but you have. <BR/><BR/>You say to Tony: <BR/><BR/><I>geeesh, Tony, it seems you argue now for "limited atonement"?<BR/></I><BR/><BR/><B>YES</B><BR/><BR/>We believe in limited atonement, but we don't believe in that alone, we also would add unlimited, so that we would say we believe that Jesus died for all men, especially purposed for the elect. <BR/><BR/>I don't know how to be more specific.Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-11486690239994619302007-12-06T17:56:00.000-08:002007-12-06T17:56:00.000-08:00geeesh, Tony, it seems you argue now for "limited ...geeesh, Tony, it seems you argue now for "limited atonement"?<BR/><BR/>Tony: "If Christ's death is a literal payment, then there isn't grace in the application of it. It's a matter of justice and rights. God owes you the application since Christ paid the debt. Why then is the application postponed in the case of the elect? Why are some left in unbelief for long spans of time if they are owed the gift of purchased faith?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-38630350474768149822007-12-06T17:49:00.000-08:002007-12-06T17:49:00.000-08:00Tony,now I know I am not getting your understandin...Tony,<BR/><BR/>now I know I am not getting your understanding.<BR/><BR/>You wrote Magnus again:<BR/><BR/>"Anyway, the death of Christ is a personal and penal substitution that will avail no one unless they believe."<BR/><BR/>How can someone "believe" in the "death" of Christ and the cause of that death if they do not have the Faith once delivered to the Saints?<BR/><BR/>Without Faith, it is impossible to please God. So I guess I just don't understand you.<BR/><BR/>I want to. Would you help me get to where you are in your understanding of "believing" without the Gift of Faith? It just seems you words are missing that important "salvation" element.<BR/><BR/>Only those who believe Christ died for their sins are saved according to you, correct? Isn't that what you are saying here?<BR/><BR/>And, if that is what you are conveying to us by addressing Magnus' post, how can anyone be saved without "first" being given the Gift of Faith which we all know and believe, God reserves for Himself alone?<BR/><BR/>Cf Matthew 11:27<BR/><BR/>Respectfully,<BR/>MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-74673630700422925602007-12-06T17:45:00.000-08:002007-12-06T17:45:00.000-08:00Ah, wait, now I see. But does the fixed quotation...Ah, wait, now I see. But does the fixed quotation make sense?<BR/><BR/>The writer is saying that Christ's redemption transaction is not enough - we also need the justification transaction.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-61501688511467265402007-12-06T17:42:00.000-08:002007-12-06T17:42:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-53384265595210631552007-12-06T17:37:00.000-08:002007-12-06T17:37:00.000-08:00Tony,with respect, I am not trying to take issue w...Tony,<BR/><BR/>with respect, I am not trying to take issue with you but saying that, I will post the whole paragraph and say with respect and sincerity, I see no foundation for any of it in Scripture:<BR/><BR/>Tony:<BR/><BR/>{{""However, the benefit of Christ's legal moral donation will not be granted unless one appropriates it through faith. Christ's mere substitionary sacrifice, by itself, does not bring about pardon or the salvation of any man. All unbelievers stand exposed to the wrath of God and condemned, even the unbelieving elect. Why is this? It's because there are conditions that must be fulfilled in order for man to be reconciled to God. Even though God is now reconciled to man by means of Christ's satisfaction, man must be reconciled to God by means of faith and repentance. Pardon is conditional. Even though Christ has died in the place of a person, they will not go free unless they believe.""}}<BR/><BR/>To use your words, let me "unpack" a couple parts then:<BR/><BR/>The first sentence in the paragraph:<BR/><BR/>"However, the benefit of Christ's legal moral donation will not be granted unless one appropriates it through faith."<BR/><BR/>How can anyone "appropriate anything through faith" if God has not given them the Gift of Faith through the Gift of Grace?<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't that be impossible?<BR/><BR/>You write: "Even though God is now reconciled to man by means of Christ's satisfaction, man must be reconciled to God by means of faith and repentance."<BR/><BR/>In light of this verse, doesn't that sentence nullify the verse?<BR/><BR/>the verse:<BR/><BR/>Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, <BR/>Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Respectfully,<BR/>michaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-83865109552786863552007-12-06T17:22:00.000-08:002007-12-06T17:22:00.000-08:00Tony,again:"The idea is that the law necessitates ...Tony,<BR/><BR/>again:<BR/><BR/>"The idea is that the law necessitates the condemnation of every sinner. Unless the demands of God's holy law are satisfied, He cannot approach sinful man with offers of grace and pardon."<BR/><BR/>My quote from another time months back unrelated to this debate and at another's blog:<BR/><BR/> Grace, as defined is What God Gives us that we don’t deserve.<BR/>Mercy, as defined is What God does not give us that we do deserve.<BR/>Peace is the outcome of both Grace and Mercy from God in our daily lives.<BR/><BR/>What about Jesus, what did He get and did not get??<BR/><BR/>Jesus did not deserve what He got from God and was given, so hence, He was shown no Grace.<BR/>Jesus did not deserve what He got from God and was not given, so hence, He was shown no Mercy.<BR/>Therefore Jesus was deprived of Peace from God.<BR/><BR/><BR/>My question:<BR/><BR/>Tony, who's system executed the sentence of death upon Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God, God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons, One God, or the god of this world system?<BR/><BR/><BR/>In short, who's system, God's or the god of this world system, carried out the execution of the sentence of death Jesus was killed by?<BR/><BR/>respectfully,<BR/>michaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-64367579874332936982007-12-06T16:59:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:59:00.000-08:00Tonyyou provide a wealth of knowledge to query, so...Tony<BR/><BR/>you provide a wealth of knowledge to query, so please allow me too then?<BR/><BR/>Your wrote:<BR/><BR/>Tony: "While some in the limited imputation camp allow for some benefits to flow to the non-elect as a result of Christ's work (the blessings of common grace), they cannot say that he rendered all men saveable by His sacrificial act." <BR/><BR/>Would you give commentary to this verse in light of those words: "allow for some beneifts to flow to the non-elect"?<BR/><BR/>Job 3:16 Or why was I not as a hidden stillborn child, as infants who never see the light? <BR/>Job 3:17 There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. <BR/><BR/><BR/>respectfully,<BR/>michaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-80771630143141268962007-12-06T16:49:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:49:00.000-08:00TFafter going back and seeing the depth of underst...TF<BR/><BR/>after going back and seeing the depth of understanding you have brought into this debate, on second thought, I take back my request to know how much you charge to edit autographs, so, sorry, I realize now after second thought, I could not afford such brilliance.<BR/><BR/>But, if you are willing to pro bono, I might send a contract for yours? ah, autograph?? :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-47642851993592482322007-12-06T16:40:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:40:00.000-08:00Seththanks for you kind and quick reply.Clarificat...Seth<BR/><BR/>thanks for you kind and quick reply.<BR/><BR/>Clarification?<BR/><BR/>Are you asking me what I do?<BR/><BR/>Michael<BR/><BR/>TF,<BR/><BR/>thanks, I will hire you to edit my autobiography, if only you will share with me the costs to me? ":)"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-10248576485378317242007-12-06T16:37:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:37:00.000-08:00Tonyextracting from your responses you wrote:"Chri...Tony<BR/><BR/>extracting from your responses you wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Christ acted upon and gave expression to the entirety of God's will, both secret and revealed."<BR/><BR/>My question, direct and forthright,<BR/><BR/>are you thinking of this verse when you make that claim, "Christ acted"....:><BR/><BR/> Deu 29:27 Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, bringing upon it all the curses written in this book, <BR/>Deu 29:28 and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as they are this day.' <BR/>Deu 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. <BR/><BR/>respectfully, <BR/>MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-25932551257642532007-12-06T16:26:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:26:00.000-08:00Michael, in your sentence to be edited, the pronou...Michael, in your sentence to be edited, the pronoun "I" in the first part of the sentence should be removed.<BR/><BR/>Thus: [Still another transaction was [[I<]] requisite in order to this: namely, the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner working faith in this expiatory offering, and the declarative act of God saying " Thy sin is forgiven thee." ]<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-15458196370415117002007-12-06T16:24:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:24:00.000-08:00Nat: You said: which by the way I believe we are n...Nat: <BR/><BR/>You said: <BR/><BR/><I>which by the way I believe we are not to judge who should hear it only that we are mandated by God, through Christ and the Holy Ghost to "PROCLAIM" the Gospel like a sower sows His seed. What God does after the seed is sown is still His Work in giving it Life.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Just curious. When you share the gospel with someone, do you tell them that, "Jesus died for you"Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-79893142502831634802007-12-06T16:23:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:23:00.000-08:00Seth,Followup:1) Is Christ's taking away "the lega...Seth,<BR/><BR/>Followup:<BR/><BR/>1) Is Christ's taking away "the legal claims of the law" of any <B>ultimate</B> benefit to the reprobate? If so, what?<BR/><BR/>2) Ransom is deliverance language, true, but it specifically is deliverance by payment (in English, anyhow - cf. Proverbs 6:35 or 13:8 or Psalm 49:7 or Job 36:18). Is your claim that this is a mistranslation (or just weak translation) or that it has become a weak translation (because English used to mean something else) or what?<BR/><BR/>Is "delivered ... out of the Law of death" exactly equal to having the "legal claims of the law" removed, or are you trying to say something different here?<BR/><BR/>3) Was Christ the federal head of mankind (exhaustively) only with respect to the "legal claims of the law"? (or with respect to other aspects of salvation, assuming there are other aspects)<BR/><BR/>4) Does the Father also desire those to come whom the Son desires to come? If so, why does not the Father draw all men universally to himself? If not, why does the Son differ in his desire from the Father?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-51058231989261319242007-12-06T16:19:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:19:00.000-08:00Setha question of clarification here?I believe it ...Seth<BR/><BR/>a question of clarification here?<BR/><BR/>I believe it is the Shedd quote, vol. 2, p. 441, two things:<BR/><BR/>the quote first:::><BR/><BR/>[Still another transaction was I requisite in order to this: namely, the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner working faith in this expiatory offering, and the declarative act of God saying " Thy sin is forgiven thee." ]<BR/><BR/>Is there a typo in that sentence? It doesn't read right to me. If there is no typo, please edit the sentence for me for clarification, thanks!<BR/><BR/>Second, whether or not, here's my point by way of asking the rhetorical question following.<BR/><BR/>Hebrews 9:13-14:<BR/><BR/>Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, <BR/>Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Which of you have been "sprinkled" with His objective literal "Blood"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-7813006535018604542007-12-06T16:04:00.000-08:002007-12-06T16:04:00.000-08:00Dang TF,now I am kinda wishin' you were because it...Dang TF,<BR/><BR/>now I am kinda wishin' you were because it would take on a whole new meaning in courtesy to this debate.<BR/><BR/>But my point was not that you are or not, my point is I hear Christ My King clearly when I read you and I hear clearly Christ My King when I read Seth and most all of those engaged from the sincerity of "heart" in this debate. 1Tim. 1:5<BR/><BR/>1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I am more of a novice with all this stuff and as one has said and I say repeatedly, this debate has done more good to me by all of you so engaged in it in giving me a sense of clarity on the issue of "unlimited"/"limited" atonement and "world" and "who" should hear the Gospel; which by the way I believe we are not to judge who should hear it only that we are mandated by God, through Christ and the Holy Ghost to "PROCLAIM" the Gospel like a sower sows His seed. What God does after the seed is sown is still His Work in giving it Life.<BR/><BR/><BR/>1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. <BR/>1Co 3:7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. <BR/>1Co 3:8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. <BR/>1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Refer also to Acts 13, 14 and 15. It's there.<BR/><BR/>I will post the verses that most establishes in my mind, [whichever way the coin lands at the end of this debate, heads or tails], why we should do more proclaiming the Gospel than debating who to proclaim it too:::><BR/><BR/>Col. 1:3-8 and "my emphasis" is on verse 6 and the "power" of what the Gospel can do in one God chooses to open their ears and eyes to both hear and see the FRUIT!<BR/><BR/>Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, <BR/>Col 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, <BR/>Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, <BR/>Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, <BR/>Col 1:7 just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf <BR/>Col 1:8 and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-44945828665194842032007-12-06T13:40:00.000-08:002007-12-06T13:40:00.000-08:00Michael and Anonymous,No, I'm not a woman or a gal...Michael and Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>No, I'm not a woman or a gal. I'm not female. Not that there's anything wrong with being female. Almost half of the Christians I know are female!<BR/><BR/>And the church itself is the bride (female) of Christ (male). So I guess, in that sense ... but I digress.<BR/><BR/>Can you smell a heckler in the crowd?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-3914118271174366112007-12-06T11:29:00.000-08:002007-12-06T11:29:00.000-08:00Seth,Thank you for your kindness and I will try to...Seth,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your kindness and I will try to stay on topic if I post on this debate in the future. I look forward to learning from all of you about atonement and its extent. I will also welcome any future learning opportunities about some of the things I have mentioned above.Magnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645497952033803558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-11101600852389271982007-12-06T11:14:00.000-08:002007-12-06T11:14:00.000-08:00Magnus...these are very good questions so please k...Magnus...<BR/><BR/>these are very good questions so please keep asking away, don't feel shy.<BR/><BR/>If, though, we get too far into this we can always start posting on these things after the debate if you would like and discuss it in that way. Might help you a little more. <BR/><BR/>But, still ask away.Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-48286374197320172342007-12-06T10:58:00.000-08:002007-12-06T10:58:00.000-08:00The "deadness" of the unbelievers in this world do...The "deadness" of the unbelievers in this world does not obliterate the image of God in them. They still have minds and wills, and therefore have abilities (all the necessary faculties) to respond. Their inability is moral, not natural, physical or constitutional. When God regenerates a man, he does not add faculties to that person. He grants them liberating grace so that they are morally able to use their God-given faculties rightly, i.e., to believe in His Son.<BR/><BR/>Magnus, while in prison, is still in the image of God, and therefore has natural ability to respond to the gracious offer of Judge Pater.Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.com