tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post1949914172057436442..comments2023-10-25T02:18:43.690-07:00Comments on Contend Earnestly: Calvin Denies the Cross?Seth McBeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-39786217680647282732007-11-06T17:31:00.000-08:002007-11-06T17:31:00.000-08:00Anonymous...There is something called justificatio...Anonymous...<BR/><BR/>There is something called justification. Because Christ paid the ransom...which is biblical wording, not my own, you are justified by that ransom payment upon faith. God declares you righteous. 1 John 1:7-9 tells us that we must continually ask for forgiveness when we literally trespass against God. It is what we find in John 13 when Christ washes the disciples feet. He says to them,specifically Peter "You need only your feet washed not your entire body, if you need your whole body washed you have no part with me"<BR/><BR/>It is the difference between positional santification and progressive sanctification. <BR/><BR/>But, it is all finished at the cross...there is no "blood bank" for us. It is application of the cross to the believer's life through faith, then a continual confession as sin happens for the sake of fellowship with God, not to get "resaved" or anything like that.Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-24668667383333223972007-11-06T14:50:00.000-08:002007-11-06T14:50:00.000-08:00Let's say that another man's slave owes you a debt...Let's say that another man's slave owes you a debt. You buy the slave from him. Is buying the slave from him equivalent to paying the slave's debt to you? Obviously not, since the payment to buy him was given to someone else. Unless you're also claiming that you are buying a slave from yourself, and then we've entered the twilight zone. 1 Jn 1:7-9 shows the need for continual cleansing and continual forgiveness. Neither the debt payment nor total penal payment ideas can fit with 1 Jn 1:7-9. I suppose if you insist on a payment metaphor then you could say that rather than paying everything right then, he stored his blood in a spiritual bank and pays as we go, as we walk in the light he withdraws and pays, since that would fit 1 Jn 1:7-9.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-78281401287945366572007-11-04T20:05:00.000-08:002007-11-04T20:05:00.000-08:00Anonymous...not sure how much you understand what ...Anonymous...not sure how much you understand what you are saying...this is not me demeaning you, but I just don't know who you are or what you stand for...<BR/><BR/>What I will tell you is that there are references to Jesus paying our penalty. <BR/><BR/>For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. <BR/><BR/>1 Corinthians 6:20<BR/><BR/>also 1 cor 7:23 and 2 Peter 2:1 speaks of this as well. The Bible also speaks of imputation which would include some sort of exchange. We also have plenty of "ransom" passages as well. These all speak of a debt payment, so Jesus definitely paid a payment of debt, it is just in what form of debt payment was this? <BR/><BR/>What you do argue well, which I am not sure you understand fully, is the fact of a penal vs pecuniary debt payment. Pecuniary is what you are arguing against as if this was the payment made, then the judgment of God could no longer be against those whom the payment was made for. And you would be right...why ask for forgiveness, why faith, why repent? If Penal, God still can demand something of the debtor even though the ransom has been paid. <BR/><BR/>So your questioning is one that is "going down the right track" but needs some tweaking and understanding of what happened at the cross. <BR/><BR/>Then, the way that we can know more fully what happened at the cross is the fact of God's elect still being under His wrath until regeneration and faith that is wrought within them. <BR/><BR/>This brings it all to a penal debt payment made by Christ for all. <BR/><BR/>Take a look at this post that deals with this...it is very good: <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://controversialcalvinism.blogspot.com/2007/08/pecuniary-vs-judicial-debt.html" REL="nofollow">Pecuniary vs Judicial (Penal) Debt</A><BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://theologicalmeditations.blogspot.com/2006/12/on-penal-substitution.html" REL="nofollow">Penal Substitution</A>Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-46140698772488582802007-11-04T18:34:00.000-08:002007-11-04T18:34:00.000-08:00"Assuming you are correctly representing Calvin, p..."Assuming you are correctly representing Calvin, perhaps he was of that opinion because it is by Christ taking our punishment that we are saved—and our punishment is not a cross, but eternal torment in hell."<BR/><BR/>Where does the Bible say Jesus had to take our exact punishment? Nowhere. Calvin's theory is simply wrong. Nor does it say that he paid our debt. He says himself that we must pray for forgiveness--why? If he either took our exact punishment or paid our debt, where is the wiggle room that allows for the need of forgiveness? You don't need forgiveness when everything's paid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-79266130453472198602007-11-04T15:12:00.000-08:002007-11-04T15:12:00.000-08:00Ego.I continued to read and found exactly what I s...Ego.<BR/><BR/>I continued to read and found exactly what I stated before. Calvin's main issue is the fact that Christ died for our sins and that without that, the cross is meaningless...which is point on...<BR/><BR/>2 Corinthians 5:21Seth McBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765679934165890595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-23211172158008897402007-11-04T13:33:00.000-08:002007-11-04T13:33:00.000-08:00EgoMakarios—Assuming you are correctly representin...EgoMakarios—<BR/><BR/>Assuming you are correctly representing Calvin, perhaps he was of that opinion because it is by Christ taking our punishment that we are saved—and our punishment is not a cross, but eternal torment in hell.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>BnonnDominic Bnonn Tennanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03103838704540924679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27391906.post-28612401641012717722007-11-03T17:47:00.000-07:002007-11-03T17:47:00.000-07:00If you will continue reading beyond that section a...If you will continue reading beyond that section and you will see that to Calvin the cross is nothing at all and that the supposed burning of Christ in hell is what he thinks saves. To him, the cross was just a necessary tangent to the burning in hell. This is certainly not the doctrine of Scripture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com